Please note, this is an automated transcript so it is not 100% accurate.

Jon:
The more stressed we are, the more mired we are, the more we’re money’s bitch, Meaning the powers that be that want to keep us enslaved and living their dream. we are now the most self aware and the least collectively aware species that ever existed on this planet. Everything in nature is wildly uninterested in that which does not bring it more life, and it is wildly interested in that which does. any change, any, any sense of I’m going to consciously destabilize myself into something else is very counterintuitive.

But it’s necessary for the healing path and it’s necessary to actually live a spiritually engaged life.

Guy:
Everyone welcome back to my podcast. Guy of course, today I have the incredible special guests lined up for you in Jonathan. Hammond who returns back to the show? I’d definitely recommend his last podcast. I did as well, quite a few years ago, but anyway, he’s a true expert in counseling shamanic practices and energy healing. And we dive deep into the powerful connection between personal healing and nature and explore how modern spirituality often misses the mark and uncover the ancient wisdoms that guide us back to our true selves, which is what we’re all about here on let it in podcast.

Anyway, Jonathan also shares profound insights. On breaking free from societal illusions, the transformative power of faith, which has been huge in my own journey as well. And now each of us can contribute to healing our planet. And in turn heal ourselves, if you’re watching this on YouTube, be sure to let me know in the comments below, if you enjoy the podcast, hit the subscribe, hit the thumbs up, share it with a loved one or friend.

I feel these conversations are more important than ever. And. At this helps me allow to grow my podcast so I can reach more people. So more people can hear these insightful conversations. That’s the game anyway. Right? one retreat left here in Northern new south Wales, Byron bay, Shire of Australia in September, 2024.

This year. If you’re in Australia, come and join us. Or even if you want to travel to Australia, come and join us. I promise you that you want, regardless the last retreat of the year in Australia, and we’re also running one in Croatia in October in Europe, I’m literally just back from Bali, finding my feet in the ground and loving life anyway much love from me.

I hope to meet you in person one day soon, give you a hug. Enjoy.

Guy: Wonderful. Jonathan, welcome back to the podcast.

Jon:
Aloha from Maui. Hi Guy. Great to be here.

Guy:
I know I keep staring at your turtle in the background on the, on your picture, actually. It’s almost like the one I got needs a turtle in the middle of it

Jon:
behind mine. It’s it’s a daily occurrence. It’s a daily occurrence, uh, here to, to, uh, to swim with them and to see them and, uh, and during whale season, you can see them breach from your car. It’s really, it’s, it’s pretty, it’s pretty magical. Yeah,

Guy:
There’s definitely worse places in the world you could be living right now, Jonathan, that’s for sure.

Jon:
This is true.

Guy:
My first question to you is, I know we’ve been on the podcast before, but it was many years ago and there’s a lot of water gone under the bridge since then. And I have no doubt many people listening today, especially people listening to my podcast, will be new to you.

Jon:
So if you were at an intimate dinner party, And the person next to you asks you, what do you do for a living? And what are you most passionate about? How would you respond? I think I’m a consciousness holder. I think that’s what I do. I work with people one on one and I do spiritual counseling and shamanic work and energy healing and all of those things. Uh, but, um, I think that I’m, I’m kind of a hardcore full time mystic and, I have the opportunity to have a lot of space in my life to, to really contemplate things and to bring, healing and insight to, uh, uh, the world problems, the world’s problems as well as, uh, individual problems. I don’t call myself a shaman. That’s not, that’s not a word that I need to use. it doesn’t matter to me. Uh, you call me anything you want. I think I’m a, I think I’m a healer. so, so that’s what I do.

And I’m, I’m, I’m. very, compassionate about our ecology and about how we can, uh, bring our own healing and our own worldview and our own law outlook and our own psychology into alignment with the natural world. Not only because the natural world has a lot to teach us about how to be, but by being like the natural world, we rejoin the natural world

Guy:
Yeah, like the disconnection. It’s funny, our workshops are called Reconnected. And we talk about reconnection to self, reconnection to others, reconnection to nature, reconnection to spirit.

Jon:
and, and a re enchantment with nature, a re enchantment with nature. I think we’ve, we’ve, uh, pulled so far away, even in our contemporary spirituality, I feel like we’ve, we’ve pulled so far away to off planet consciousness. and I don’t know where we’re going because we live here, and I think that there is a way to, recontextualize sacredness, imminent sacredness here on this earth, and that, uh, that our, our spiritual processes are not so much about higher dimensions and activate your pineal gland and this will happen and all that, you know, it’s, it’s about, um, being in lived relationship in creative engagement with our lives, with the natural world.

And, uh, that feels really important and it feels like something that even in a lot of contemporary spirituality is, is missing because we keep going higher and higher and higher. And, uh, and I think part of the reason why we are in the problems where we’re in both ecologically and otherwise is because we are, uh, geared towards being off planet, towards the mental and not towards the embodied and the physical and the lived.

Guy:
I’m so happy you said that, mate. It’s like, I always think of the image of the tree, and the more we focus on the roots and the deepening and the connection to, to here and the now and the grounded, you know, that’s where I believe we, we’re here to experience this physical reality, and we spend half our time running away from it.

But naturally, the deeper we go, The roots naturally the branches will elevate higher in in their own time and that will be a byproduct of that anyway

Jon:
There’s a, there’s a Native American idea called the original instructions. And what I love about this idea is that, uh, it applies to humans and to everything in the natural world of which we are also part of the natural world. We are animals as well.

And the original instructions are, Essentially that that wired into us gifted to us by the mother and gifted it to everything by the mother are instructions that are agentive and that follow that are leading towards a purpose and that everything in nature wants to grow beyond its current circumstances.

It wants to evolve. It has a teleology. It wants to get somewhere. And, um, and everything in nature. Um, by virtue of it existing follows that and it’s only humans and we have it too, uh, but it’s only humans who have, uh, who don’t listen to that, that instinctual wisdom towards life, towards growth, towards evolution, towards purpose.

We, we, uh, have this funny thing that we do that, uh, where we override that, and it’s a felt sense in all of us. And, uh, those original instructions are, um, if we, if we could let go and heal into them, they automatically put us in attunement with ourselves and with purpose, just like everything in nature. It just by virtue of being itself is following its purpose and at the same time connected to the all and so there’s something uh, very basic about that that we’re gifted with even fated with which is a word that that uh Doesn’t get a lot of airplay in in spiritual circles but the idea of fate that I was given these circumstances this body this sexuality this, uh, that family And that those were all part of the design of my original instructions.

And that if I can align with them and follow them and make them healthy, then I become, uh, an agent of being just like everything in nature. And everything in nature is collaborating to bring life, to continue life on the planet.

Guy:
How have we got into such a disconnection from that because I’m in front of people every month Jonathan and Most people don’t trust it. They don’t feel into it. They’re living in their heads it’s almost like we’ve You You only have to look to the indigenous and ancient practice and the shamanic practices, and this was just part of their natural being on a daily basis.

And it’s almost like we’ve discredited in western society and gone very egoic and it’s all mental. have we gone wrong, do you think?

Jon:
Well, before, when we were doing it right, and this is from the anthropological, uh, data about, uh, hunter gatherer cultures, they had, they knew that they had a separate self. And they knew that they were also equally connected to the all. They held both those, those, uh, uh, uh, ontologies or those ways of looking at the world, they could hold both.

And, um, and we really, we pulled away from that and there’s, and, and so the, the culprit is really culture, human culture versus, versus the natural world. And human culture is, uh, all the things we’re supposed to be. All the things that we’re supposed to believe, all the paradigms of, uh, of, of rules and dogma and, uh, uh, and conventional ways of being that we’re supposed to fit into.

We even have a part of the psyche that Freud identified called the superego, which is the part of us that assimilates with the culture. Neatly named three parts of the psyche and one of them just assimilates with the culture. All you have to do is turn on the television to see what the culture is that we’re assimilating to and how we’ve pulled away, uh, we’ve, we’ve given that more clout and legitimacy than organic reality.

And so it’s been, and this is in our religions, Genesis and first chapter of Genesis is about about dominion over the earth and that we humans are, uh, the peak identity. We are the, we get to be the dominion. The geological agents. We are the top of the food chain and everything else is just, is just background, a storehouse of materials for us.

And that began this very, uh, inorganic, uh, and essentially hierarchical domination, uh, over the earth. And, and because that’s embedded in our psychology, we do it to each other. And because we do it and we do it to the earth, which is a birthing agent, we have certainly done it to the feminine, to women. And so, uh, it really comes from that.

It’s been going, it’s not just religion, it’s even, even the, uh, the classical philosophers talked about that the only kind of soul that, uh, that required any moral consequence was the rational human soul. Uh, and, and these background, these, these philosophers are, are the background of how we think in the West. And, uh, so it’s that it’s been going on for a long time. This, this, uh, disconnection from, from our feelings, from our body, from our pleasure and adherence to a hierarchical structure where we send our energy and our soul and our spirit up to them. And we’re expected to give our soul and our spirit and, and work with our soul and our spirit for someone else’s dream. And that is called being part of the part of, uh, part of civilized society. And it’s really sick. It’s really sick. And it’s, uh, and make no mistake, the, the architects of reality who put that structure into place, they knew what they were doing and they are sociopathic. They are, I won’t even call them narcissists.

They are sociopathic because they’ve even created religious paradigms that says it is healthy or it is, it is, it is a holy to do that. To leave yourself for some, uh, idea of someone else and that whole paradigm of the one God, the one God that, that, that has been adopted by humans as the one peak human identity that we are all supposed to worship. And it, and we all are supposed to fall in line from there. And yet the natural world shows us that the best ecological advantages come from diversity. Come from cooperation. The Darwinian idea of survival of the fittest is largely been, uh, uh, uh, dislodged as real. What, what, what, uh, what contemporary ecology is seeing is much more about cooperation and empathic connection.

And, plant species, uh, feeding other plant species that, that are different from them because they might be in the shade and I’m in, I’m in the sun, all kinds of cooperative things going on in the natural world. And, uh, and that’s more what, uh, what nature is supposed to be teaching us and what we’re supposed to be learning from nature and participating in, for goodness sake.

And the culture has a whole different idea. About what that is. And it’s about, uh, I’m over here and you’re over there. And we are now the most self aware and the least collectively aware species that ever existed on this planet. And nature will just, if we just reconnect, nature will show us, uh, that we can be both.

I get to like my stuff. I get to, you know, I get to like, I get to be attached to whatever I’m attached to, but I am also collectively aware of the all, that I am part of that. And what I do affects that and either contributes positively or negatively towards that. But the idea that I’m not and the idea that I shouldn’t care is what’s wrong with the culture and what’s wrong with our adherence to it.

And so we got to get that superego that adheres to all that stuff out of there enough. To where we can come into an embodied lived existence with the world.

Guy:
Thank you for sharing all that. That’s in my mind right now. That’s a highlight reel, what you’ve just said. It’s that important and so well articulated. Thank you, Jonathan. I couldn’t agree more. And it makes me ponder on my life when culture had such an imprint on me. But the challenge was, Jonathan, growing up in the valleys of Wales, That was all I knew.

But I knew something wasn’t right. So the culture of the schooling system, the culture of the way people, the amount of alcohol drank, and the tribalism around rugby, and life, like it was, it’s like, and even at a young age, I felt like I never fitted in. But what came then, like I felt like a brave soul, because I, I was a brave soul.

Said i’m not going to settle for this, but it was such an extreme pressure

Jon:
Yeah,

Guy:
I and I feel at some level we all feel that you know, it’s wanting to keep us in this unconsciously There so I I went through

Jon:
Yeah, i’m envious of you because I I bought it. I bought it I bought it the idea that you were questioning it at a young age is is uh, It’s just a testament to to who you are. But but I uh, this wasn’t on my radar, you know, so, um, uh And I think that’s why you’re doing what you’re doing, you know, because there, there, there was something about you that was feeling like, uh, this, this, this isn’t quite right.

And throughout my life in all my previous false lives to this one, which are all necessary, they’re all okay. Um, it was, it was feeling, this doesn’t feel exactly right. I’m following the rules. I’m doing the right thing. I’m, I’m succeeding in ways that, that I was taught, I was taught to were the way. And every time I would have one of those trophies, I would go, I don’t want this trophy.

Don’t give a shit, you know? And, and, um, and, and so I really had to undo what I was taught, what I was taught, what success is, what, uh, what manhood is for goodness sake, uh, what life is about. The even even the uh, the legitimization of my own pleasure as opposed to my own ability to cope and people Please and suffer all of which are taught to us by the culture as okay we and we need to question that stuff we need to question that stuff because uh, uh, we uh, Yes, they’re suffering in nature But nature doesn’t like it when that happens and it avoids it at all costs and it certainly doesn’t sign up for a life of It

Guy:
Yeah when You look at culture and you look at these systems And that are in place everything looks so big and powerful And you think you know, it’s so easy to go I’m, just a cog in a wheel and I I can’t do anything change and I think we get caught up in our In our own pain our own belief systems and we and like we settle For something far less like you said and we disconnect from all those intuitive feelings and connections and faith is something that you raised as well earlier, which is Um hugely important in my life You Where do we start?

Do we start on healing ourselves? Do we start on healing with the planet? Is it a collaborative approach? When people come to see you and they’re in pain

Jon:
hmm. Mm hmm.

Guy:
needing guidance What are the general? themes that you find to help people feel empowered to then start to actually Feel like they could be not only making a difference in their own personal life But then to the people around them and to the planet that we inhabit

Jon:
Well, when you start talking cosmology, it can feel overwhelming. You start talking about the environment. It can feel like I’m just a little, I’m just a little nothing. You can’t care about the plastic in the ocean if you, if you have a tack in your foot. So we got to get the tack in your foot out. That is the personal healing.

You can’t, you can’t be of service to the collective in any sort of way unless, unless you’re well. So yes, of course, you are, uh, whatever you heal in you is automatically because we are connected to the all, because there is only one mind. Even, even the Gaia theory talks about that the entire Earth and, uh, and the, the biosphere around it is what acts like one organism.

And so we are all each individual cells in that organism and curating health in our own cell contributes to the organism. So, so if you want to care about the ecology, it’s not about being coming in activist or joining Greenpeace or something. It’s about taking care of yourself. It’s about being well.

It’s about being well. Uh, working on yourself enough that you are not spilling your stuff into someone else’s experience. That you are self regulating, that you are taking responsibility for your life. That you are taking responsibility for your own healing. That you are, that you recognize your own pain and work with whoever or whatever to get out of it.

Because all of that stuff is obscuring those original instructions. Because the original instructions, if followed, will not only give you your true self, but will give you your true self in collaboration with the all. So, so the ecological is nothing, you, you can do, you can, you can be ecological without ever leaving your house.

If nature isn’t your thing, just by virtue of, of really taking care of yourself and healing yourself. And, um, and the last thing I’ll say is that I think that, um, that there are two kinds of people. On, on, on our side. You know, there are two kinds of people. There are the people who, um, who are tuned into what we should do, and there are people who are tuned into what we can do.

And I think we need both. And I think the people that, that are tuned into what we can do need to listen to the people, uh, uh, uh, uh, who are tuned into what we should do. And so, our influence in our wellness, in our care, attracts, uh, Other people who maybe are of a different echelon of power, maybe do have political sway, maybe do in some way are rubbing elbows with the architects of reality. and so, we’re all needed. You know, I, I often, I often say with my, my clients who are in, uh, in corporate structures, I say, uh, you kind of go into the death star dressed as a storm storm trooper five days a week, but underneath you’re giving earth wisdom in disguise and that’s, that’s what we have to do.

That’s what we have to do.

Guy:
Yeah. It’s almost, it’s so tempting sometimes to, to run away from it. And like, I’ve often thought about it, you know, just like, I’m just going to get a little farmland. I’m just going to grow some veggies and just keep my life very simple. But I, I feel like, great sense of, um, contribution and it fills me in such a way when I, when I go into major cities and major places and run these workshops and feel like I’m getting in the dirt, um, and starting to make people aware of, of what’s possible.

And I feel we can all have that opportunity as opposed to just run away from everything that we can face up to it and actually can contribute it.

Jon:
totally I heard something great. I wish I I had thought of it, but I didn’t. Um, someone who was talking about change, change, changing consciousness toward towards ecology towards interconnection. He talked about creating pockets of sanity. And so I think your impulse to go and have a little, you know, a little bit of land where you get to, uh, you get to, um, live by rules that are that are in attunement and aligned and loving and empathic.

Makes a lot of sense. And I think we can all individually create our own pockets of sanity. And if we, if, if enough people are doing that, something else might take hold.

Yes, yes, absolutely. So, you’ve clearly created a pocket of sanity for you, where you’re living. And, I’m, I’m curious, do you mind sharing a little bit about your experience, and what were the defining moments for you, Jonathan? Like, because you said you’d, Fully bought into culture and you’d lived that life and felt like you Lived many lives and now you do what you do and so If you had to articulate what would have been the defining kind of moments or things come into your awareness that just went, right? I mean, I have so many, uh, and I think we all do. I think we all do. And I think we, we don’t give them enough clout. I have so many peak experiences that say there’s something else going on. So many spiritual experiences, even, even the idea of the grace that comes when healing happens in me. When I, when I, when I really, I’m able to let go of something and enter into a new way of being that’s grace.

That is, that is, uh, miraculous. And I’ve been on that path my whole life. I remember when I was about 20 years old, I was walking in an airport, you know, the bookstores in the airport. And there was, and I always went to the self help, help section. It’s the only kind of book I ever read in my entire life.

And, uh, and one of the books, I don’t know what ever became of the book. The title was feeling good. And I thought. That sounds like an idea that I can’t even imagine what that 20 years old. Like what, what is that like? And, uh, and it opened something up in me and I’ve been trying to do that, uh, for, for my whole life.

So, uh, and doing fairly well at succeeding at it. I think the big thing lately was the Lahaina fires. So we, I lived 20 miles from one of the biggest ecological disasters that has ever occurred.

And, um, And it opened something up in me. The biggest thing that it opened up was that the next day when you look at the media, the culture, it was all Stories of the Chinese laser beam that did this, and the government conspiracies, and the aliens, and no one was talking about that this was fire, and air, and a little bit of human error, and extreme weather, the likes of which this island has never seen, that could not survive, and that its infrastructure could not survive.

No one wanted to have that conversation. No one want everyone wanted to point their fingers at something other than that. And that was something that that ripped my heart out, but opened something up in me that said, and P. S. Lahaina was at one point the capital of Hawaii, of the Hawaiian kingdom. And it was known as the Venice of Hawaii.

We had all these natural waterways. All the water had since been diverted for sugarcane production 150 years ago. So it was dry as a bone. Because we did not follow the traditional ecological knowledge of the indigenous people when the colonizers decided to do that. And so it was set up to, to, uh, to go.

And I mean the whole town with soup to nuts. So the whole time you drive 10 minutes, you’re still, you’re still passing burn. And the, the mother kind of said to me, uh, I, I know what I’m doing and I have taken all of the Aloha, all of the culture that is behind glass in the museums in Lahaina and I am unleashing it and I am, and I am transmuting it and I’m making it alive again into something else.

And then six months later, it turns out that. that that ecological disaster has actually moved the needle on indigenous rights. And there’s all kinds of legislation because all these people, these local people are displaced and there are all these rich people and corporate interests and off offshore, um, offshore owners of properties that don’t even live here. Who are, you know, and, uh, and the indigenous people, um, are, are getting a voice. There’s going to be litigation. There’s going to be, you know, it’s going to be a bit of a shit show, but you never hear about the indigenous people even coming close to winning and, and that’s happening. And that is the mother trying to get through to us.

Guy:
And so that was, uh, really formative in terms of, uh, where I want, and that wasn’t that long ago. It was only last August, but that was really formative in terms of. Where, where I think I can be of benefit and how I want people to start thinking in terms of, uh, a relationship with our home How do we, I know, keeping the conversation in this direction, and the question seems so simplistic, but there’s got to be more to it. How do we develop that, that relationship with our home?

Jon:
imagination. When you think of all the, all the research, all the latest research about nature is that everything is not only alive, we know that, but we forget it. It’s alive, it’s sentient, it’s agentive, it has feelings. Plants have all the same senses that we do. They are actually looking back at us too.

As are the birds, as are everything. They are not, they are not the props or the scenery for our human drama. They are real. Us. They are in relationship with us. We are genetically connected, uh, to, to, uh, uh, your, your, your cat and your houseplant are, uh, we are, we are, we are that similar. And because everything has a consciousness, that means that everything is, is able to be communicated with.

Now, it’s not necessarily a conversation like we’re having, but it is, but you can enter imaginatively into it. Hello, the shamanic journey. That’s what a shamanic journey has always been. That I am merging my mind with the consciousness of something in nature. That’s been going on for thousands of years.

That’s how they lived. That’s how they knew how to live and to be safe. And so, and so when you think of biodiversity, I love that idea, but I love the idea of psycho diversity that everything in nature are transmitting all these different consciousnesses that are a part of us in much the same way that when we connect with spirit guides, that’s another non human consciousness that we’re connecting with this place is enchanted and it’s filled with consciousness that and when they start dying, we lose that consciousness and we don’t know if we need it or not.

But if the mother put it there, she put it there for a reason. And so it’s about that. It’s about that conversation. And, and really you, you enter it, you enter it through imagination. You enter it with a sense of, of, um, of humility and kinship and, um, and connection and, uh, and care and curiosity for goodness sake.

And, uh, and something will emerge. You know, I often, I often, you know, state that, you know, if you think of if a walk in the forest is about the forest is going to give me a message about this question that I have, if that’s your reality that you enter the force with the force will start talking. If you don’t have that reality, it’s a forest that you walk through. But the one that is the one that has the one that I’m suggesting, the first one is an animistic orientation that has been going on. Since the beginning of Homo sapiens, 99 percent of yours and my ancestors practice that lived relationship with the natural world. 99%. It’s only been relatively recently that we got all weird.

Uh, you know, and, and that was considered primitive by, by, by, by the West, by the European West. Prim, that’s a primitive consciousness. You don’t know the difference between yourself and the other. You’re an idiot. You know, it’s, you know, and it’s like, no, I recognize that, but I also recognize that I’m part of it as are you.

And that is, uh, that’s, we, we used to think that way. We used to think that way. And I think children, I think we have to teach children that the teddy bear doesn’t have sentience because that’s where they would automatically go. I’ve even, I’ve even heard animism as our natural state, our natural state, our natural healthy state, and that we, we have to really do a whole bunch of, um, Jumping through hoops, mental hoops, and, and, um, uh, and, and separate hoops and mean hoops to not make that connection.

And that’s what we’ve forgotten, and that’s why the planet’s so sick.

Guy:
And then you combine the fact that we don’t even give ourselves permission to slow down and create space in our life because we’re in this hamster wheel. And we’re not even giving ourselves that opportunity just to breathe out and actually breathe. Start to lean into our imagination, lean into play and lean into that curiosity and start to become more aware and get our, get our, um, feet in the earth or the sand.

Jon:
yeah, and I think that’s, that’s by design. That’s by design. The more stressed we are, the more mired we are, the more we’re money’s bitch, which is what everyone wants us to be. Meaning the, the powers that be that want to keep us enslaved and living their dream. the less time we have for, uh, for this kind of connection.

The only kind of connection that really matters, which is looking at each other in the eyes with love and care and curiosity.

Guy:
It blows, it’s wild mate because once you, once you experience this and kind of, it’s like somebody whacks you over the head and all of a sudden you see clearly, you know, and then, and then you, for me anyway, you can’t undo that. And I truly feel as well, and I’d be interested to hear your perspective on this, but obviously I podcast a lot and I kind of keep one eye on the conversations that are going out there and potential speakers to bring on and things like that.

There’s clearly a conversation that’s happening that we like Earth consciousness is shifting we’re moving into 5d reality. Everything is starting to change. We’re in this precipice of time. More and more people are waking up or more and more people are digging their heels in deeper. I mean, what are your, what are your thoughts around this at this time at the moment?

Because I do get optimistic. I, I, maybe it’s in my nature. Um, but I’d love to hear your views

Jon:
Well, you know, I love the idea of 5D reality, but I want to just put some meat on its bones. What that is really getting at is that 3D reality is just me, you, and the eye that sees both. It’s binary, that’s what 3D reality is. That I’m over here, you’re over there, and there’s separation between us. 5D reality is about that that’s happening, and yet there is a bigger story that can hold it all, that there is a myth.

That surrounds it all, that it is all happening for a purpose that is leading toward evolution. And so 5D reality means that I can live right along that guy who I don’t like very much and I don’t trust very much. And I can curate my own reality and live alongside him. And, uh, and connect myself to something, I know why he exists.

That’s part of 5D. I know why he exists, but that I’m holding a bigger perspective. And that’s, that’s how we can live alongside the things that we don’t resonate with and not be, uh, infected by them because we’re holding a bigger perspective. I’m not just in that 3D reality where I don’t trust you, you don’t trust me, et cetera, et cetera.

You know, I, I’m not playing in that. I, I’m aware of it. I’m aware of it, but I, I’m actually, uh, I’m, I’m going here, I’m going here, and I think, I think anyone who’s a genuine seeker, certainly anyone who’s watching this podcast, it’s like, it’s like the best we can do is, is get, give people something to emulate that is something like, what’s that guy having over there, because they seem happier, you know, they seem less tortured, they seem, they seem like they’re, that they’re directing their life toward love, and over here, I’m just watching CNN and everyone fighting and being neurotic and, and all of that.

You know, and that’s what 5D is. 5D is that we can live alongside it, but we have to, uh, direct our consciousness towards what it is that we want to create, while the other thing is going on, and it’s going on, but, but, uh, but I’m not interested, and everything in nature is wildly uninterested in that which does not bring it more life, and it is wildly interested in that which does.

Guy:
It doesn’t take long before we just need to turn back to nature for answers, does it? That’s what it feels like every single time.

Jon:
It’s all there. It’s all there. If I thought that there was some other system, dogma, rule, uh, to follow, I’d buy it, but that’s the one that makes the most sense because it’s right there. It’s right there. It’s there to teach us. You know, there’s even, there’s a famous, uh, Cherokee story about, that the animals go to the, the animal people go to the stone people and the, plant people and they said, we’re going to kill the humans because they’re the fucking assholes.

We’re going to, and we have the ability to do that. We’re going to kill them, and the plant and the stone people who are older. And who have less egos say, I understand why you feel this way. That is not in accordance with great mother. So instead, what we will do is that we will provide a medicine for any of the young humans who ask, and we will provide them with medicine through our existence that they can take for themselves.

And that that’s what we can do. And we can’t kill them. We can only give them the medicine of our existence and hope that they take it.

Guy:
It feels like, just to recap everything you shared, ultimately at the end of the day, if we keep pushing against what’s wrong with everything, we’re just going to get more of that. Like, like there’s a manifestation in our reality, what we fixate on comes to light. And if we like, I’m aware of it. I know it’s going on.

But this is the world I want to see. This is how I want it to represent it. And I want to embody that. And I’m going to live it from here, the heart, from my space, and know then that’s going to start to influence. And then if enough people start doing that, that will become our reality.

Jon:
And it’s not avoidance. It’s not, I’m aware of it. We’re aware of the, we’re aware of the things that we don’t like. It’s not avoidance and it’s not transcendence. Uh, it’s, it’s, um, it’s, uh, focus. On something else. It’s attention on something else. It’s actually, it actually requires a kind of discipline even you know, I was on a podcast the other day and, and the, the host said, well, what do you do with that altar back there, back there?

Guy:
And, uh, what, what is that about? What do you do with it? And I said, not much, except that every time I look at it, it reminds me of a reality that I want to choose today. That’s what I do with that altar. Huh. Yeah. The one thing if it’s done for me, Jonathan, I just want to raise because I can just feel people they listen like if I fixate on everything that’s wrong. Then I feel, I actually feel helpless. I feel like I, and it creates overwhelm, it creates, makes me anxious. And there’s, it, it’s almost, you get to a point, it’s stressful.

And then I say, well, I’m not going to be no use to anyone, including my family or anything, if I get caught up and churn in that place. But if I move into what can I do to make a difference? It’s, Then I feel empowered. I feel like I’m moving forward and it it It fills me up in a way that is incomparable when I, when I think about those moments, hence why a podcast, hence why I do what I do and, and go out there and it becomes very rewarding.

And I just encourage everyone who’s listening to ponder on that and start to really embrace those aspects.

Jon:
provide a philosophy about why, but you’re right. It really is simple. It really, it’s simple. It’s just, it’s just feed your potential and starve your dark doubt, feed your love and start, starve your fear, feed that which is life affirming and start that which isn’t individually with yourself.

It’s, it’s, it’s actually very simple. You don’t have to solve the climate crisis. You don’t have to solve, um, the political crisis. You don’t have, all you have to do is just contribute from your little cell to the one consciousness, goodness, health. And the consciousness, because we’re connected to the one mind, the one consciousness, the spiritual biosphere that surrounds the planet, we are contributing to it.

And, uh, just by, just by living well. And living in accordance with, with, uh, uh, your own sense of love and compassion and empathy and care and, and growth and creation. It’s very simple.

Guy:
I want to ask you this, like, as we come towards the back end of the podcast, probably a great direction to kind of, uh, take things in to finish. But what I found, Jonathan, on my journey is that the more I’ve gone inward and healed my traumas, my wounds, my belief systems, I don’t know, whatever terminology there is, and, and created a more coherent Being within me.

I always visualize like every single cell Becoming in harmony all pointing in the same direction to the collective of myself and part of the part of that And it’s like the more I’ve done that the more clearly I can see without the shit filtering my lens, basically, that’s allowing me then to start pushing up against that.

And I’d love to hear your perspectives, and especially with your shamanic background as well, about those wounds, those things that are there to potentially teach us something, to learn something about ourselves, to be able to move in these directions that we speak of.

Jon:
Well, what you’re experiencing, I, is a dynamic that I only. understand because it happens every time, which is that when we heal, we become healers. We all want to pay it forward. People say, who are the people in your practice? They’re all healers because on some level, when they get better, they recognize that they want to pay it forward, that they want to contribute to the collective too, because they felt the ecstasy of the healing, even though the healing may have been a real slog, may have been years.

Of undoing and, and, uh, you know, it’s a slog. It’s a slog. But that’s, but the embedded in the original instructions are, are, uh, are empathic service to the whole. That’s what’s embedded there. And so when we remove that, which obs skewers that, that starts to take hold. So anyone who’s ever had any healing, they always want to pay it forward.

That’s just, that’s just what happens. So I’m, I’m not surprised that you’re a podcaster and a, and a healer and a group facilitator and all of that, because you’re on the healing path and you’ve got, and healing is a thing, like it’s real, like it happens and when it does, we always want to pay it forward.

It’s, it’s a very weird, dynamic and it actually happened to me. I was not, I was in a whole other life. but. I was, as I healed, I, I was so enamored by what I was experiencing and it felt so much more important than what I was doing because I was becoming more free and more liberated within my own mind and releasing that which blocks me from, from my own life and pleasure and, and all of that.

And, and I just wanted to, be in the. In that those energies all the time and I think that’s what what uh healers are they’re in the energies all the time even if they are just uh If they’re just you know going to movie on some level I’m going to movie because it’s in service

Guy:
So

Jon:
you know Yeah,

Guy:
just to give people context, you understand, what were you doing

Jon:
I was I was an actor. I was I was a broadway actor for first, uh 38 years of my life. and you know that I used to worry when I became a spiritual teacher, I used to worry, well, people are going to think I’m putting something on because I used to be an actor. I now know that I’m, it’s much of the same skillset.

When you think of like an actor, you read a script and you go, what kind of person would say that? And you empathize with it and become it from the inside. And that’s what I’m doing with clients. What kind of person would say that I empathize with it, become it from the inside with my wisdom, and then I can judge it and make it better.

So it’s very much the same, uh, the same, uh, skill set. It’s also about when you think of acting from a point of view of artistry, it’s about, you know, the lines and the blocking and the structure, and then you want the inspiration to come through. And that’s very much what I’m doing now is that, is that I have my wisdom.

I have my, taking my courses, know my thing, and then the inspiration comes through. So it’s very much that, but I, but my parents saw that I was so imaginative in such a mimic, um, that they, that they kind of put in my head actor and that kind of seemed right because there was no template for, for what this, whatever the hell this is.

Uh, and so that’s what I, uh, so that’s what I followed. And then I remember opening night on Broadway, my first Broadway show, uh, uh, playing Harry Houdini in rag time, where I’m, where I come in from above the proscenium arch upside down in a straight jacket to do a trick. And I’m, and, and it’s the, my big entrance and I’m going, I, Fucking hate this.

What am I doing? I don’t like this. I don’t like any part. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of my life and I can’t, I’m so uncomfortable. This is not it. This is not, you know, and that was, you know, with, with 250, 000 of student loans in drama school, you know, it’s a very scary thought to have when you reach the pinnacle and you go, what was I thinking? Uh, so, um, so it was that so that was that was my previous life and I had always done healing work during my during that career, but it was in the closet because I didn’t want it because I was an actor. I didn’t want anyone to know, but I always, always had clients never advertised. Never. I don’t even know how they found me, but I always had had clients.

My little 5th floor walk up in Manhattan, but, um, something just sort of took hold. And I had, I had to really face. I don’t, I don’t want to do this. I don’t, it’s not, it doesn’t have a big enough reach for me, which is weird given the fact that it’s, that it’s, it’s acting and it’s public and all that. It wasn’t, I was never a fame driven, driven actor.

It wasn’t, it was never about that. It was about the artistry. It was about telling stories. It was about, you know, raising consciousness. And I just couldn’t do that to the extent that I wanted to.

Guy:
And then was it hard to walk away or was you just like, no, I’m ready, I’m, I’m moving on. And then you just come out of the closet with the work you’re doing and life’s rosy or was it a real transition?

Jon:
it was like, who, who am I on Facebook? What am I? You know, like, uh, you know, I, who, it was identity crisis. I think we all have to face identity crises. I think particularly when we are unplugging, but when I say culture, it’s also family culture, family expectations, what all that stuff. And when we unplug from that, sometimes there is a bit of an identity crisis.

And I think that that that’s healthy and that needs to be worked through with someone who can help you work through it, who’ve been on who’ve done that have been on that path. Because, because, uh, any change, any, any sense of I’m going to consciously destabilize myself into something else is very counterintuitive.

But it’s necessary for the healing path and it’s necessary to actually live a spiritually engaged life. We’re going to have to do that at some point. And what’s on the other side of it is life is, is a more, is a, is a more realized you. And, uh, and so it’s worth the discomfort. So it was, it was hard. It was hard to give it and I was good at it.

I was talented. So there was a sense of what are you doing? What do you mean you’re doing that? You know, um, and I had, I had to face all that. I had to face all, and all the opinions of others and all that.

Guy:
I wanted to raise that because I know a lot of people that’s where everyone’s at people that come There’s the identity crisis is happening You know the bigger questions. Who am I? What am I going to do with myself and lentin and one last question? kind of tinkering away with that then when you did that and because you spoke about faith right at the beginning and did you have faith that Were you were you terrified?

Are we like no I’m just going to embrace this faith and just go Let let the river take me in the direction it needs to

Jon:
Uh, oh yeah. I had faith, but I also, I, I, I’m a scaredy cat. I’m a scared, I bet. I’m a scared. I’ve been a scaredy cat my whole life. I, you know, like, I, I, and I think that to not acknowledge that is to not garner the courage. What is courage? I’m gonna go forth. Despite the fear. That’s what courage is. , you know, that means that I’m, if I’m gonna be courageous, that means I’m acknowledging the fear, so that that has always been there and I let it be there and it’s supposed to be there.

And. What I don’t understand about psychotherapy or more clinical work is that faith isn’t really a thing It’s not a tool and I don’t understand how how one can live a life What because at some point we’re going to be the fool in the tarot where we’re about to jump off and we hope that There’s a net we all at some point will do that And that is the, and the fool is the zero.

It’s not even one. It’s the beginning of the tarot and it’s, and when you see that, that image, it’s, it’s a guy, he’s got a little bit of belongings. He’s about to step off a cliff and he’s got a big smile on his face. And so, uh, and because he knows something, you know, is coming and we all are going to face that.

And that’s, that’s always terrifying to go from here to there. There’s that in between place where I’m not there. And, and of course that’s going to come up and it’s, and it’s just about like, and it only matters that you just don’t give the fear. The fear can be 49%. It just can’t be 51 or you won’t do it. Hopefully you’re going to work on it and get it less than that. But, uh, but it, but if you’re going to do it, you gotta, you gotta get that fear. You gotta turn down the volume on that enough. And the way in which you do that is, of course, with faith and, uh, and it’s a good idea to have it. It’s always like, you know, when people say, I mean, I’m an atheist and I go, how’s that working out for you?

That giving you more possibilities that one. That, that happen, you know? So, you know,

Guy:
Thank you, thank you for sharing I am may i’m just going to wrap up the podcast a couple of things What one is where can people? You get a hold of you. Can they work with you remotely? Where’s the best place to send them, Jonathan?

Jon:
Yeah. Jonathan hammond.com. Mindbody spirit maui.com. If you put in Maui Shaman, Jonathan, it’ll all come up. You know, it’s, uh, uh, uh, pretty easy to find me. Um, I, I see people on, that’s primarily online. I do, if you’re on the island, I, I’ll, I’ll see in person as well. I also have a, um, it’s not been announced yet, but I have a, a course with the Shift Network and that that’s gonna begin in, uh.

Uh, in September and that that’ll that’ll live on my website when the, when the, when it, when it’s officially announced, we don’t even have exactly a title yet, but it’s around a lot of the things that we talked about today, so you can get on my mailing list and you’ll certainly get an announcement for that as well.

Guy:
Beautiful. And you’re working on a new book? Because you’ve got the book The Shaman’s Mind, which I do have on Audible, by the way. I

Jon:
Shaman’s Mind. I also have a, I have a course called the Shaman Within, which is an audio course, um, through Hemisync. which is great. Yeah. And, um, and I tend to create classes or courses and then write them down and they become the book, you know, so I think, I think the shift network course is going to happen.

And then I’ll, uh, well once, because it’s so much easier to write a book when you actually have a structure that worked with people, uh, and then, and then write it down. So, uh, so I think that’s coming, but I also, yeah, I moved here. I moved to Maui during COVID and I was still working with people, but I really took time.

I I’ve been in reflective mode for the last, even since I’ve seen you and I’ve just now, um, in a good way, not in a lazy way, in a reflect truly reflective mode and, um, you know, and sort of coming back to, to, um, to start some new projects and things,

Guy:
Yeah. Beautiful, uh, well the links will be in the show notes for everyone anyway, and Last question is anything you want to leave the listeners to ponder on after everything we covered today

Jon:
there there’s two big energies on the planet right now, uh, authoritarianism and sociopathy and narcissism and freedom. Those are the two things that are bumping up against each other. And just. Give the freedom your attention and your heart and your spirit and uh, and you’re doing your part

Guy:
beautiful Jonathan mate, thank you so much for coming on. I love talking to you. I love your energy Oozing out through the screen here, mate It’s it’s a true true joy and and I hope many many people listen to this show today And I got a lot out of it. So thank you for all you do man. I appreciate

Jon:
welcome. Mahalo. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Thanks guys