#148 This week, my amazing guest is Paul Smith. Paul started his career with remote viewing as, in his words, a psychic spy for the American military in 1983, and is now the longest serving controlled remote viewing teacher active today. During our very interesting and informative conversation, we talked about remote viewing, its nature, and its history. Paul talks to us about his journey with remote viewing and working as a psychic spy for the military.

I hope that listening to our conversation makes you realize just how vast the spectrum of our minds’ abilities is and how we can do anything we wish if we, quite literally, put our minds to it. I know that for me, listening to the stories of people like Paul is really inspiring and makes me realize how we are truly so much more than we give ourselves credit for.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you may also like: Science, Synchronicities & Intent | Dean Radin

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About Paul: Paul Smith is the longest serving controlled remote viewing (CRV) teacher active today, having begun his career as an instructor in 1984. He served for seven years in the government’s Star Gate remote viewing program at Ft. Meade, MD (from September 1983 to August 1990). Starting in 1984, he became one of only five Star Gate personnel to be personally trained as remote viewers by the legendary founders of remote viewing, Ingo Swann and Dr. Harold E. Puthoff at SRI-International.

Paul was the primary author of the government RV program’s CRV training manual and served as theory instructor for new CRV trainee personnel, as well as source recruiting officer, unit security officer, and unit historian. He went on to teach controlled remote viewing to such well-known remote viewing personalities as Lyn Buchanan, Mel Riley and David Morehouse.  Paul is credited with over a thousand training and operational remote viewing sessions during his time with Star Gate.

►Audio Version:

Key points with time stamp:

• Paul’s work in his own words (0:59)
• How Paul defines remote viewing and tells its history (2:25)
• How accurate is remote viewing? (5:55)
• How did Paul become a psychic spy for the military? (6:41)
• Scepticism around remote viewing when Paul started his work (14:24)
• Paul’s first day on the job (16:10)
• Paul’s first remote viewing experience (16:39)
• How clear are the images seen via remote viewing? (21:28)
• Going from training to being on the field (23:39)
• A remote viewing experience that stood out (28:09)
• The role of intention in remote viewing (34:09)
• Is the military still involved with remote viewing? (35:43)
• Paul’s thoughts on the divine matrix and the field of information (40:59)
• Who attends Paul’s courses on remote viewing? (43:53)
• Can anyone learn remote viewing? (47:30)
• How can the listeners start experimenting with remote viewing? (48:31)
• What Paul leaves us with (50:29)

Mentioned in this episode:

• Ingo Swann
• Fort Meade, Maryland
• SRI International
• ESP
• Mind-reach: Scientists Look at Psychic Ability, A book by Russell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff
• Journeys Out of Body, A book by Robert Monroe
• International Remote Viewing Association
• Close Encounter of the Third Kind
• John Deutch
• Professor Donald Hoffman
• Gregg Braden
• The Essential Guide to Remote Viewing: The Secret Military Remote Perception Skill Anyone Can Learn, Paul’s second book
• The parapsychology Association
• The Rhine Research Centre
• The International Remote Viewing Association

Paul Smith’s Website: rviewer.com

Paul on the Initial Stages of Remote Viewing:

• www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Ryc196s0I

The Parapsychology Association:

• www.parapsych.org/home.aspx

The Rhine Research Centre:

• www.rhineonline.org

The International Remote Viewing Association:

• www.irva.org

 

About me:

My Instagram:
www.instagram.com/guyhlawrence/?hl=en

My website:
www.guylawrence.com.au
www.liveinflow.co

 

TRANSCRIPT

Guy 00:58
Mate, I love to ask everyone on the show, if you were, say at an intimate dinner party right now with a few strangers next to you. And they sat next year got chatting and ask you what you did for a living? What would you say?

Paul 01:12
I’d say I was the psychic spy for the army.

Guy 01:15
Wow. Well, you wouldn’t mess that’s not messing around yet. What reaction would you get?

Paul 01:23
Um, first of all, people aren’t sure they heard me right when I say that I go. But you know, and then, then I gives me an opportunity to explain right now, I say, Well, I used to be psyche spy for the army. Now I teach people how to do it. Right. And so and then I’ll go into I have this kind of elevator speech. Right, I’ll say the US government had a program for 23 years during the Cold War, where they took military personnel and government civilians, and they trained them in this ESP based skill, psychic based skill called remote viewing. Essentially, they trained us to project our consciousness, to the outside planet to inside hidden rooms. forward and backward in time, using only the power of our mind alone. We were literally psychic spies for the military. And we spied on the Soviets or the Hezbollah or narco traffickers or whatever whoever the bad guys might be. That was our job. And I did that for seven years.

Guy 02:25
Wow, that’s mind blowing. The psychic spy I hadn’t heard that expression, when when we might as well dive in there. So So there’s a couple of directions. I could go in this already. But the first one I would ask probably then is how would you define remote viewing for the listeners first, and then we’ll go back into how the hell you got into becoming a psychic spy?

Paul 02:46
Yeah. Remote Viewing is a skill that’s based on an underlying everybody has an underlying ability, everybody has to actually perceive things through essentially, form of extrasensory perception is used to purposely indirectly gain information about a place a target event or a person that might be distant in time might be shielded from perception in some way, like locked inside a room or hidden somehow, or back distance and distant in in time either into the future in the past. And it was developed in the military in a laboratory that was supporting the military. originally created by an artist in New York named Ingo Swann and then adopted by the CIA, and later on by the army, the Air Force used it for a while the Defense Intelligence Agency, which is the intelligence Oregon for the military services, and ultimately given back to the CIA.

Guy 03:50
Wow. And okay, how, how will you see in it or perceiving it? And so if, if you’re remote viewing per se, I’m assuming you’re not leaving your body or anything is imagery that’s coming in, now we all connected or you even do that you can leave your body? I don’t know like,

Paul 04:10
well, if we don’t know the causality, right, we don’t have a causal story that explains this, which is one of the reasons that mainstream science wants to hold it off at arm’s length is because we can’t explain how it works. We have the data. And there’s some really strong data that shows us developed under really rigorous scientific circumstances, okay, strong data that shows that it’s real. But how does that work? We don’t actually know. We know where the stimulus is. We know what we perceive, but we don’t know that story in between. Right. So when somebody says, Well, you don’t leave your body? I don’t know. I mean, it isn’t. That is what the experience is like. My…, my question oftentimes will have, you know, you’re in your body in the first place.

Guy 04:55
Right? Yeah,

Paul 04:57
yeah. So the experience It’s not like we’re leaving our body in a particular way, it’s like we actually do have some conscious connection to whatever the target might be. And you do it and it works, and you produce results and, and the results can then be verified, measured against what the actual target was. And not all the time it’s not 100% just like any perceptual experiences, may have fallouts and or dropouts in it, okay, of remote viewing can be really, really good. Sometimes just falls flat. And since we don’t know the mechanism for it, using mechanism very loosely here. So we don’t know how it works or why it works. Let’s put it that we don’t know why it works. You can’t predict when it is going to work. There may be circumstances we don’t understand or, or that we don’t control for that keep it from working. And other times when it really does work. We just done something right.

Guy 05:55
Wow… how accurate can it be then, like we talked,

Paul 05:59
well, sometimes can be very accurate. There are a number of the kind of paradigm stories about remote viewing cases that have turned out really well as one was. When remote viewers that fought me is this happened largely at Fort Meade, Maryland. When they actually 10 months before it was ever revealed, they successfully accurately described the typhoon submarine before the Soviets ever launched it. And when the US intelligence network didn’t even really know, it was there. There was a really remarkable, there’s been others too. And maybe we’ll talk about some of those as we go along.

Guy 06:41
Yeah, for sure. Well, let’s let’s take us back then how does one become a psychic spy for the military, like we were so

Paul 06:50
journey? Yeah, to become a psyche spy for the military, they actually have to come and recruit you. You can’t, you couldn’t, you could not seek it out and volunteer. Because you only knew it existed if they decided to tell you that existed. And because it was what’s called a special access program. So you know, there are literally millions of people in the military that have clearances have, you know, security clearances, up secret, up to top secret. But you can have security clearance, and you would not be entitled to know about this. Because there are compartments within the security world for projects that have to be protected, particularly so in this case, what the only real defense against a remote viewer is to take out the remote viewer. And so our program was really tightly compartmented so that no one would know who was in it. First of all, no one really knew that exists know that it exists in the first place. And second of all, they would never be able to find out who was involved in the program, just partly for our own security sake. So essentially, what happens is they would have to notice you and decide you were somebody they wanted to the program. And then they would approach you You didn’t go looking for it.

Guy 08:12
How would they determine the skill sets? And because wouldn’t they be like looking for the Michael Jordans of remote viewers to bring into the into the team?

Paul 08:21
and notoriously, the first day that Michael Jordan played basketball knew nobody knew he was going to be Michael Jordan. Right? Right. He had to actually play and play and play until they discovered Hey, this guy’s Yes. And in some way they recognize that is a problem. Okay, so they knew that you don’t know if something’s going to be good until they actually try it. But there were some indicators that would suggest whether somebody would be a better choice than somebody else might be. So they had certain criteria, for example, candidates for it would have to be well established in their military careers. And of course, we’re all intelligence officers. So we’re pretty limited to the intelligence branch in the military. So it’d be well established in the careers and have good report cards that they were actually competent. They had to be above average intelligence, which, presumably people in the intelligence world are above average intelligence, I say presumably, because that’s not always the case. But presumably, and they were also looking for intelligence officers that had some kind of creative pursuit. Okay. So for example, like they might be involved in studio art, like painting or drawing or something like that. They may be musical performers. In some sense. They may be proficient in foreign languages, although there’s a lot of language expertise in the intelligence world. So that’s not quite as unusual, unusual. They might be creative writers or some other kind of creative person and so when they got to know me, so interesting, there’s some synchronicity going on here. When I was assigned to Fort Meade, I was a Middle East desk officer as a Middle East analyst. Okay, that was my job. But I moved in next door to skip outwater. You Back then we call him Fred out water. But he goes by skip. Now we moved in next door to skip Atwater, who is the, the training and Operations Officer for the remote viewing unit. And we were across the street from Tom McNair, who was at that time, unbeknownst to any of us being trained as a remote viewer. And these guys, I was really curious. Who are they? What are they? Is this really weird because they only wear civilian clothes, even though they were lived in military quarters that said Captain Atwater and Captain McNair, right? They only wear civilian clothes, and Tom had a full beard. So that was very odd. And I had no idea what they did. And I tried to find out and I didn’t ever get any hint. Although I could tell it was very strange. Because on Fort Meade, you generally knew what kind of intelligence work someone was doing, or may not know who the you were, they were doing it against, but you knew that they were either signals intelligence, or imagery intelligence or human intelligence or something like that. And you know, one of the events as we called it, but these guys had no idea and they weren’t talking.

Guy 11:26
I had, what year was this?

Paul 11:28
This is 1983

Guy 11:30
1983. Okay.

Paul 11:30
1983. So I’m moving this these guys are we became friends. They’re really nice guys. And I didn’t know but they were assessing me because they were looking for three more recruits because they had a contract with the the think tank, Stanford Research Institute. Now SRI International, they had a contract with the think tank that had developed this stuff. To train through more people in remote viewing. I had never put the words remote and viewing together in one sense ever. I didn’t never thought about right. And most of the people in universe at that time, or at least our you know, human local universe had ever done that either. So they’re looking at me, though, and they discovered that I had majored in art in college and had illustrated books. And like the paint and stuff, they discovered, I’ve been playing guitar for 20 years, they discovered I was fluent in German, and had been trained in Arabic and Hebrew. And they also noted that I like to write short stories and send them off and get rejected by the publishers, right. So they had this thought, what we can’t not try this guy out. So, so they, one day they came over, and they said, Hey, we think you might be good at what we do. And I said, What do you do? And they said, We can’t tell you. I said, Well, how do you know that? Or how do I know that I would be said, well, we’re gonna give you some tests. And they gave me some psychology tests and personality profile tests and things like that. And, and I guess I scored where they thought I ought to, and there was a kind of a, you know, set of boundaries within which they expected their best sources to fall and apparently I scored in there. And so he one day, they invite me over to their offices, which was only really five minute walk from my front door, ironically. And I walk in and they sit me down the back and Tom McNair with his beard and his suing clothes. He says, Well, first of all, sign this I have basically signed my life we’re not, it was it was a nondisclosure agreement, there was even more arcane than anything I’d signed to get access to top secret information. I was really quite surprised at how, how strict it was. And, and then Tom says, Okay, well, what we do here is we collect intelligence against foreign threats using a parapsychology skill known as remote viewing. We essentially want you to volunteer to become a psychic spy. Now, you don’t have to tell me right now, if you want to do it, you can think about it for 24 hours and come back tomorrow. Tell me I said, Oh, no, I don’t need that. Where do I sign? And he was kind of surprised. He had expected me to be taken aback. And that I would say, Okay, well, I need that 24 hours to think about it, but I instantly knew that I wanted to do it

Guy 14:24
because I was gonna say Was there any skepticism coming up at the time thing? It’s shit is this is really gonna work or can I do it? Are we just like, No,

Paul 14:33
no, this the all the skepticism was about me not about whether it’s real. Okay, so So here’s how that went. As I was growing up, I like science fiction. I particularly like science fiction involved, extrasensory perception. I thought that was really cool, right? So I reading all these fictional stories about ESP and then come junior high. One of my classmates decided to do an ESP experiment, so that you know the one with the Z In regards to the wavy lines, the star and all that stuff, right? And nobody got anything, I totally fell flat. Nothing’s like he came out of that project at all. And so I thought, well, dang it. I thought there was something to this. And here I totally failed. And it wasn’t very scientific to make this conclusion. But I formed the conclusion, well, this, this must be a very fun thing and fiction, but there must be nothing to it in reality. And so at the time that I got this pitch from Tom, I was a bit of a mild skeptic. But here’s how this data unfolded is, as he’s telling me this, my mind is thinking, he’s telling me the government has a program that teaches people how to do this. That means this line item in the federal budget that pays for this, that means there’s got to be something real to this. There is no way in Heck, I’m not going to try this out. So you know, that just the logic of it was very obvious. At that point. There has to be something to this. Something that I’ve been excited about my whole life, there’s no way if they were gonna give me the opportunity. I was going to accept it no matter what.

Guy 16:10
Wow, I guess, do you remember your first day, like when you turn up for the job? And you think, right, I gonna, I’m gonna try

Paul 16:16
this first day was no big deal, because they just gave me a bunch of stuff to read. Right? Okay, so I was reading books, some of them are like mind reach byRussell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff and Journeys out of the body by Bobby Monroe.

Guy 16:28
Yeah. And I’ve read that one

Paul 16:30
mind the mind by Randy Walker, you know, books like that. So that was my person who’s doing this background reading, then it was time for my first remote viewing experience. That’s where my skepticism came in. About me. Okay, so I’m starting to believe this stuff is real. But it being real, and me being able to do it are two different things. Hmm. Will I be able to do this? Will I fail? Will I on the like, the fourth day I was there get kicked out of the program, because I couldn’t do it. And that was, of course, a real worry, because it raised my anxiety level. But but but they, I think they were used to people having that experience and feeling that way. And so they said, don’t worry about it. We’re just going to give it a try. Come on, you know, let’s go do it. And so what we did was what’s called a an L pounder experiment. So what happens is, you, the viewer, the remote viewer, are in a room with another person and neither of you know what the target is. And these rooms window less than they had they were soundproof that everything right? So we’re in this room have no idea what’s going to be meanwhile a team of people. In this case, it was two people. I want to say it was Tom. And he was Charlene was another person there. I don’t remember. It’s written in one of my books, I have to look it up myself to remind myself, right. That’s why I write books. So I can remember these things. I totally so. So. Meanwhile, they were randomly assigned the target outside of any, any way I could hear what he or see what they’ve been assigned. They were assigned a target, they went off to the target, about 15 minutes away drive. And then I sit down there and skip was my monitor. And he guided me through he said, Okay, now, what you do is you kind of write the start time on your paper, and you Well, I’m sorry, this was this was a URI. So I was actually laying down when I did this, okay? And he said, Okay, so I want you to relax and focus and describe for me where Tom and Charlene are. Okay, so the idea is that you’re not reading their minds, you’re not seeing it through their eyes, you’re just using them as the locational point, you find them. And then you find the target. Okay, so I described this what’s kind of a room, it’s got a sort of beige off yellow walls, there’s the walls were kind of a matte kind of smooth, bumpy field, there’s windows with low curtains. And um, there’s these little spindly kind of tea table things with chairs. And then over here, there’s a, a long feature with a transparent piece of assumably glass in it with little things behind it. So I’m describing all this stuff. And as skip is writing down, he’s recording what I’m saying and all this stuff. And we get done. And Charlene and Tom come back. And so then I get my feedback, which is they take me to the target. So we loaded all loaded in the government car that we were assigned, and we drove over the target. The target is this massive water tower, very blue color, Central, central pillar, and then all of these legs coming down to things probably 50 feet tall and probably 100 feet across. Nothing, totally nothing of an oak Fred, I really did fail my first time. I totally joked. They’re gonna kick me out, you know? You know? So we go back and We’re eating doughnuts and stuff, you know driveway eating doughnuts that they picked up in for going along. And all of a sudden, I saw off to the side, this little thing. And I said, What’s that, and skip who had figured out what happened said, it doesn’t matter if you don’t get the says if you don’t get the target, it doesn’t matter what you get instead. And I said, I don’t get it. And he said, Okay, let’s go over there. So we pulled in, got out, walked in this old building. So beige off yellow walls with flat, bumpy feel to them little AC curtains in the window, these little spindly tea tables, a counter with glass in it, and behind the counter rows and rows of doughnuts. So what had happened is Tom and Charlene had stopped a donut shop on the way back and bought a bunch of donuts as a treat, which they should never have done, because what I picked up was the donut shop, not the water tower. So I learned a very hard lesson that day, I learned that oh, I really was like you because I absolutely knew what I described. What I perceived was exactly what was that was it was it was just totally clear to me. But it wasn’t what I was supposed to remote view. So I learned, it doesn’t matter what your view instead, if you don’t remote view the intended target. So it was both the confirmation and a hard lesson. You know, so how, yeah,

Guy 21:29
wow, how clear? Is that information coming in? And is it like vagues of flashes or sometimes clear, then our thought, you know, because

Paul 21:39
it’s, it can come in in various ways. So generally, when you start out in most of the first part of remote viewing session, usually, the impressions are I call them vague, half remembered memories, they are of that quality, like a memory is sort of vaguely recall, except it’s some you know, it’s not a memory. So it comes in, you get these impressions. And over time you learn to identify ones that are real from ones that are imagination, to some degree, you never perfect data, but to some degree. And so you can get colors, you can get qualities of light. In other words, was that bright? Is it dim is a chat away? Is it whatever, right? But it isn’t just even though it’s called remote viewing, that’s really probably the wrong name for it, it should have been called remote perception, because you get visuals. But you also can get smells and tastes and tactile and everything. And sometimes those will come through almost as if you really are experiencing them. It’s never the case that you really feel like you’re touching something. But you can get the almost as if you are touching something. So you may be rough or whatever. But sometimes you don’t have that experience, what you have is just the sudden knowing Well, something here is rough. Hmm, without actually feeling a sensation of rough, you might get an impression of red, sometimes you actually get a vivid flash of red in your mind. Sometimes you don’t get anything like that. But you just know that there’s red here, and you just record all of that stuff. As you get deeper into a session, particularly when you’re really on, you can actually start getting fairly accurate visual kinds of impressions again, you know, you’re not seeing these things. You just have this sort of visual experience of these and, and those are probably rarer than the more vague kind of experience I’ve told you about. But they still happen fairly often. To experience remote viewers. I’ve had that happen to me a number of times where it just popped right there. There was and it was right.

Guy 23:39
Yeah, amazing. Amazing. Because I’ve had in my own meditation practices, sometimes when I fully let go, and I know my body’s just gone. But I’m still conscious. You know, sometimes these extremely insane, clear visions will just come in from something I’ve got no idea what they mean, why I’ve seen or anything, but it’s there. And it’s like, Wow, that’s really fascinating. You know, and you know, it’s not your mind thinking it? I am. I’m curious that so once you’ve done your training in the military, you’ve been doing these things. When do they put you kind of like in the field, per se, and then how many remote viewing missions would you have done in that seven years that you spent doing it?

Paul 24:25
Yeah. So this requires a little bit more of a complicated answer, right? Because first of all, started with training. We started training. So the experience I just told you about my first remote viewing experience. I did those a few more times during the next few months, because they were getting us ready to actually go out to California to Menlo Park where Sri is and start our formal training with Ingo Swann and with Puthoff the folks who were responsible for developing all this stuff. They were under contract to the US government to do all this. And so again, We went out, we did our training, and we spent all of 1984 either going to New York, I’m sorry, you’re going to California, or up to New York City, we there are two different training locations, where we went through our training process. And on average, it was two weeks were away training and two weeks were back home, because they wanted to break it up a little bit. So you have time to edit the technical terms assimilate the what you’ve learned, right? So we did that for a year. And then we spent our roughly another year learning the more advanced stuff, it would have been much less time except that we had a lot of, of issues, they tried to shut the military unit down, the skeptics got in control of, of the decision making tried to cancel the program. And and, you know, we had a lot of administrative crap we had to deal with during that time period. So in, we would have done a lot sooner if it had not been for that. So ultimately, starting in about, well, we did our first operational sessions in 1985. But the first serious ones we did starting in 1986. So it was about a two year period of building up to where we paint became, as we say, operational, right, become, okay, real world problems. And then I was operational for a while until I had to deploy to desert storm in 1990. So, so for over that four years, I probably did about 1000. Viewing sessions. Yeah. Yeah. And plus plenty of training ones as well. No, no, I’m sorry. Hundreds, let’s say hundreds, I think 1000 would probably account for our training as well.

Guy 26:47
Okay. It was still so it’s a lot. A lot.

Paul 26:50
Oh, yeah, yeah, we would, we would usually do a session every other day. Because by the time you when you get into the more advanced levels of this, it’s fairly grueling. It’s usually about an hour and a half or two hours of really focused, and they didn’t want us to get so hammered by this, that we started bleeding over, you know, sessions, bleeding into other specialists and stuff. And they wanted to be very relaxed. So interestingly, in this setting, we were the equipment, we were the intelligence collection equipment, right. And so they didn’t want to store heat. They didn’t want to blow any, any valves refuses to speak metaphorically here. And so. And plus, we had a lot of other standard military stuff to do. I was the security officer and the unit historian and, and and the recruiting officer for new sources and training we had, we had to burn for training. So in 1984, at the end of 1984, Sri lost the contract because of all the skeptics coming in. And so we started doing in house training of new people coming in. And so not only did we do our own work, but we had to teach the new folks how to do what we had learned how to do. So we have pretty full plate in terms of the military, and the training, and then the operational stuff we did as well. So

Guy 28:09
Wow. And were there any viewings that you were assigned to that really stand out where you think, oh, wow, we’re gonna do this. So, you know, and I don’t know how much you can talk about it from being

Paul 28:23
exclusive. It is actually now now declassified most of it. In fact, you can get access to a lot of these records on the CIA website, they’ve they’ve published it all. The problem is, of course, it’s just this huge, you know, they took a vacuum cleaner and sucked all the information out of the unit and then put it in the website, right. So most people don’t know what they’re looking at, really. If anybody there’s there’s an organization called it’s a nonprofit organization called the International remote viewing Association, or IR VA for short. So at ir va.org. People who join that organization can get access to a much more organized collection of the CIA, Stargate archives, which are they call it program was called Stargate at the end. So you can get access to that. And I’ve actually written an introduction that kind of gives you a guide as to what’s in there, and people who join erva can actually get access to all of that stuff. So if you’re okay, just Yes, just join Aruba. And so I forgot what question I was

Guy 29:31
wondering what any particular one that really stood out for you.

Paul 29:35
Oh, right. Yes. So, yes, there are a number there was, you know, we actually were asked to remote view the US stealth aircraft program because they knew the Russians had a a remote viewing program and they wanted to know how vulnerable they really top secret stuff was so the Russians, but of course, you can’t go ask the Russian remote. Viewers remote view your stealth aircraft program and tell you how they did right? It just wouldn’t work. So they ask us instead to do it now. But thing, I remember where I was going partly with this answer, one of the things you have to be aware of in remote viewing is that the viewer has to be blind to the target. Okay, what that means is the viewer cannot know what the target is. Right? And the main reason for this is because if if you the viewer do know what it is, then everything you can you know about it already, or think you can guess about it, everything you infer about it, everything you speculate, all that stuff is right there live in your head, and it becomes a kind of a layer of noise that may block or at least contaminate the actual very subtle signal that’s coming in. And it’s the signal has has the information that they want, right. So if all this other crap is going on, you lose the signal. So the viewers are intentionally kept blind what the target is, so that you didn’t, didn’t have all this competition for what they wanted to find out. It worked very well, except then people say, Well, how do you know what the target is?

Guy 31:11
But how do you?

Paul 31:13
Yeah, well, so what appears to be happening is that our subconscious or unconscious, what have you the layers of thought well below our conscious awareness, that seems to be connected in some way with the universe at large. And so we used to use it well, we still do, but essentially use an arbitrary number to designate what the target is. So the example I always use, is we’ll take a number 8675309. Okay. You don’t know that song, do you know, look it up sometime, maybe 5309. Okay, you’ll get a kick out of it. Anyway, it’s exam five through nine equals we’ll say to train target equals describe the Eiffel Tower. Okay, so maybe I want my students describe the Eiffel Tower as a practice target. So I’ll write down 8675309 equals describe the Eiffel Tower, and I’ll figuratively tear the sheet in half. And I’ll keep the part that has Eiffel tower on it. And I’ll hand him or her, the sheet that says 8675309. And then they’ll take that number, they’ll write it down, they’ll go through the process they’ve been taught. And somehow the subconscious goes out into the universe, whatever that means, goes out in the universe, finds what that number is linked to, which is described the Eiffel Tower, and then directs the viewers conscious awareness to attempt to address that target to excellent target, okay. And the conscious awareness actually doesn’t know that it’s going to the Eiffel Tower, it only knows it’s going to start perceiving stuff. And it comes in very vaguely at first, as I mentioned, usually, it starts off with the sensory elements, like it’s hard, it’s cold, it’s metallic black. And with some dimensions, it’s tall, it’s airy, criss crossing elements, and that kind of thing, you may start sketching it, and then later in the session, you’ll start getting things like a commemorative foreign tourists, the tourists come to visit this place, it’s set in a in an urban, it’s in an urban setting. Some for some reason, I’m thinking about France, you get that kind of stuff in later on in the session. And ultimately, the most advanced stage we call stage six, you can actually build a model of the target that you have out of clay or other materials. three dimensional modeling is a is a part of the process. Now you’ll have been remote viewing for about 90 minutes or two hours before you get to the point where you might build a model but if you’ve seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind,

Guy 34:01
I did is it kind of loved as a kid

Paul 34:03
So Richard drives is building Devil’s Tower [inaudible] stage six controlled remote viewing,

Guy 34:09
right, wow. Wow, incredible. I am. You know, it’s it’s fascinating what you say I’m assuming then intention is a big part of remote viewing.

Paul 34:23
It’s a key element to it.

Guy 34:26
Yeah. Why is that? What so what is? Why did what do you think of working with intention? Because I’m always fascinated with intention because we live so unconsciously. We never really

Paul 34:37
think about this. Okay. Is there anything in the human world that doesn’t center on intention?

Guy 34:54
I guess no.

Paul 34:55
We do say often times, well, I did that unintentionally. Well, that’s pretty much a lie. Right? We may not think that we purposely did something, but you have to have some kind of intention to take an action of any kind. You even have to have some kind of intention to not take an action of any kind. Okay, so, except, in way, even when you’re asleep, there’s some intense intentionality going on our dreams involve intentional states. Right. So, so I don’t know, maybe, maybe you could come up with something. But generally speaking, our whole world revolves around intentionality in some form or other. And so it’s not a surprise, that intentionality is an important element in remote viewing as well. Yeah.

Guy 35:42
I never I didn’t, is the military still doing this, or looking at this, we’re using this. Do you know?

Paul 35:49
I’m probably not. Okay. People said, Well, how can that be? I mean, look at all the successes you had, yeah, we had a lot of successes, we had a lot of failures, you know. And on top of I mean, that’s true of any intelligence collection modality. satellite imagery isn’t perfect, make a lot of false decisions, or fail to make decisions based on satellite imagery that is incomplete or incorrect. You can have incorrect satellite imagery, people realize that signals intelligence, there’s a lot of there’s ways of fooling it. And I can’t, I don’t know what I can get into here, because it’s a very checkered classified kind of a field, right. But there’s ways you can fool signals intelligence, there’s a way you can be misled, mislead yourself, it signals intelligence. Same thing applies to human intelligence. I mean, you never know if the agent that you’re getting information from is a double agent, or not. Right. So so all of the intelligence modalities, modalities have their false positives and false negatives. Remote Viewing is just like that. But it has the added problem in that it is something is very controversial, is something that people either believe in or don’t believe in, nobody questions that you can get a radio intercept using signals intelligence. There’s nobody who argues against that. But saying I can perceive something in in the former Soviet Union in a bunker out on in north of the Urals. That’s something that people are finding, easy to reject, if it’s not in their belief structure. So that’s the additional thing. So what happened was, we had some successes, we had some failures. But the big issue was that people didn’t believe in or they’re scared of, or they know anything do with it. And so ultimately, what happened was the people who are our supporters, either retired or died. And that led people who are detractors and skeptics and critics behind in decision making positions. So when Congress decided the DEA wasn’t doing a decent job of managing remote viewing, they decided to pass it on to the CIA to the Central Intelligence Agency. But there was some miscalculation there. Because it turns out that the director of the CIA, john Deutsch was a notorious remote viewing skeptic. He was he’s on record as having kicked people out of his office and even brought up the the subjects when they were supposed to come and giving briefings and stuff. So they were essentially Congress gave the project to a to a, an organization that was led by someone who didn’t believe in remote viewing and didn’t want anything to do it. And so it shouldn’t be a surprise that the CIA cancelled it. People will, you’ll hear a lot of folks who’ve read the news stories on it and say, well, the CIA found that it didn’t work. It shouldn’t be surprised. But that’s a lie. They did not find that it didn’t work. What they did was they commissioned a report that purported to find that it didn’t work that reported that it didn’t work, having not actually done any serious research on it. The telling thing here is that the CIA closed down the program, the remote viewing program, the day that it received from DEA, so June 30 1995, was the transfer date the CIA accept the program on that day and then lock the doors and send everybody home? They shut the program down on the very day that they accepted it, which made Congress mad, but by then. So and then the report that everybody gets that all is of no use. Yeah. But that report wasn’t the research for that wasn’t even started until the month after they shut the program down. So the report that was supposed to justify shutting the program down, was started after they had shut the program down. Right. What does that tell you?

Guy 39:37
Yeah.

Paul 39:39
I’ll give you another soundbite on that report. In the course of the report, at Fort Meade, well, not just for me, but in the course of the remote viewing program. We probably get close to 3000 or so. I don’t know exactly. It’s hard to nail it down. Operation remote viewing sessions on several hundred remote viewing around you Remote Viewing intelligence collection projects, the report only considered 40. So less than 1% of the total, they considered. And they base their conclusion that it was not useful from an intelligence perspective on 40. of multi thousands of missions.

Guy 40:22
Yeah, fascinating. It is fascinating because I’ve said it before grow. I’m in my little podcast bubble, right? Yeah. having these conversations all the time, and I’ve had some very claimed scientists on here as well, that talk about a field of energy that’s given rise to consciousness and given rise to our reality right now. I had Professor Don Hoffman on you was created the theorem that nobody has been able to prove him wrong. And

Paul 40:50
yeah, he’s good guy. I Like him. He’s,

Guy 40:53
yeah, right. You’re aware of his work.

Paul 40:55
I disagree with him, but I like him.

Guy 40:57
Okay. But it’s, it’s fascinating. I had Gregg, Braden, on here, you know, he talks about the divine matrix and the field of information as well. I’m curious to know your point of view, what do you think is going on? With it all, from your experience?

Paul 41:11
Well, there’s this this cartoon I saw a long time ago, which shows them, Einstein working out one of his theories, right? There’s all of these complex mathematical symbols and stuff. And then there’s the conclusion over here, and there’s this gap in the middle, and he writes, and then a miracle happens. Right? So in between is a miracle. Right? And, and if I was forced to say what I know, that’s what I have to say, I know this side of I know, the side of I have no idea what fits in the middle.

Guy 41:43
Yeah, fair enough.

Paul 41:44
And no, neither does anybody else. There’s lots of theories. There’s one not even theories, there’s like hypotheses. There’s lots of speculation, but nobody actually knows. Right? So that would be the bottom line. Now, what do I think is going on? First of all, I don’t think that what happens remote viewing is physical, I think it’s a non physical aspect of the universe. Now, maybe consciousness is that it may be that consciousness is a, essentially a co primitive with matter. So you have matter. And then you have consciousness. Now, in mainstream science, it’s driven by this metaphysical doctrine known as physicalism. So physicalism says that everything in the universe is either physical, or the consequence of physical facts. Okay, that’s all there is, is physical. Now, you know, physical can be energy or matter, whatever. But nonetheless, it’s all physical, and there’s nothing else. And, and it is a metaphysical claim, they cannot prove that that is true. There’s literally no way to prove it is true without assessing everything in the universe, which of course, we can’t do. There’s no way for us here on this little tiny planet out there in the arm of one galaxy of billions to be able to research the entire universe, right, so, so the most that a physicalist can actually substantiate is it’s probably true that physic you know, physical things, and physical forces are only things that exist. But there’s this counter example called extrasensory perception, which, maybe in the end, they’ll prove its physical. But right now, there seems to be no way that it could fit within a physical paradigm. Us, aside from the speculations and hypotheses that people like to throw out. And so I think that there are non physical elements in the universe. And that remote viewing works by virtue of that, are those whatever it is? What is that? I can’t tell you? I’m in the physical world right now. I can’t tell you what that is. But I know the way it behaves suggests very strongly that there is more to the universe than just the physical part of it.

Guy 43:53
Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. You you you teach this you run courses you run, I think week long retreats and everything. What um, what kind of people come to learn and why are they coming to learn it? Like what have you seen? what’s the what’s the driving force behind that?

Paul 44:11
So it’s hard to say what kind of people the one thing that they are is, I won’t say open minded because some people come here who aren’t open minded at all. They’ve formed their own opinions about what the universe is. I have had, I can’t really nail it down to one because I’ve had dog trainer in a flower arranger. I’ve had the CEO of a major aerospace company. I’ve had numerous PhD psychologists, I’ve had act serving active duty military folks. I’ve had housewives I’ve had teachers. I had a school principal. I have people from every walk in life. I’ve had a truck driver UPS truck driver right. On his way through stop for a week and Just add people from walking, like the one thing they share in common is they’re curious. Some of them don’t really believe this gonna work, but they want to give it a chance. It’s kind of expensive experiment, because of my teaching model. It’s not, it’s not cheap for most people. But still, it’s a, by far the most come probably because it’s kind of a self actualization thing they’re trying to, to determine for themselves. Whether or not this proposition is true that we are more than our physical bodies, hmm. And I use the comparison of skydiving. So you can use parachutes for lots of things, get military forces behind enemy lines, put in smoke jumpers, but out, you know, to work on forest fires, to get supplies in or paramedics or whatever. But the vast majority of people who do it as civilians, do it, just to prove to themselves, they can do it, just to do something that the rest of the world they know the ret most people, on average, are scared to do. They’re essentially overcoming themselves. And they’re trying to transcend their limitations. And I’d say that’s probably a good metaphor for why people come to learn remote viewing is to prove to themselves that we really are more than our physical bodies, that our consciousness is conscious, whatever is plural, singular, I don’t know, our consciousness does extend beyond the limits of our skulls. And it’s really awesome to watch them because you’ll you’ll see somebody down at the table, and you give them a target. And they know exactly what they know about it to start with, which is nothing. And they go through, and they sketch and they verbalize and they experience, they get it all down there. And they’re still not sure they got it. But they feel like they’ve accomplished something. And then they see their feedback and realize, I really did describe the Eiffel Tower, and I had no idea it was the Eiffel Tower. And I had no way of knowing it was that Eiffel Tower, except through the power of my own mind. And that’s just a real epiphany for a lot of folks, they go Holy cow, this stuff really does work. And the implications of that are huge for human for human nature. absolutely huge, both for human nature large. And for our individual human nature’s Wow,

Guy 47:10
I would imagine it would lean into starting to believe and trust in yourself more and and lean into your own intuition as well.

Paul 47:18
I think probably you do. I mean, you still have doubts and all that kind of stuff. But generally speaking, you you at least have more respect for yourself, you realize, oh, there’s more to me than I could imagine, right?

Guy 47:30
Yes. Totally. Can anyone learn this?

Paul 47:35
Well, yes. Although that’s qualified. Yes. Obviously, there’s going to be some people who can you know, someone who may be really far on the autistic spectrum may have trouble, although maybe they’ll succeed. I don’t know. It’d be interesting experiment, if they bet how to get you know, if they would be willing to try that. But there are people who there. They may have cognitive issues that make it hard. There are also though, maybe people who are so biased against that they won’t succeed, you have to be be willing to at least let go and give it a try. You don’t have to be non skeptical. They’ve had actually, skeptics go to SRI and say, no, this doesn’t work. And then it does. And it blows their mind. It’s pride. But if you’re too hard over as a skeptic, you’re going to deny everything.

Guy 48:25
Right? Okay.

Paul 48:27
Yeah. Even if you have success, you’re going to deny it. Yeah.

Guy 48:31
So if somebody’s listening to this right now, when when it’s had and they’re inspiring it all right? I gotta give this a crack. I want to start with some due to the global restrictions that are going on. And maybe they can’t join you for a week or ever. How could they start to experiment with? Do you have any simple resources for them? Or

Paul 48:49
Yes, in fact, I’ll refer them to a video that I have. post the link later, but you can find it on YouTube. It’s called, let’s see, how do I guys called How to do a simple remote viewing. If you look for how to do a simple remote viewing, you’ll find it. And that will actually talk you through very easy kind of experiment of how you could try remote viewing for yourself. Kind of a partner video to that is called remote viewing martial art for the mind. Well, that’s an introductory video that tells you what it is. And then how to do simple remote viewing tells you how to do it, at least at a basic level, very fundamental level. Beautiful, I’ll

Guy 49:37
make sure for everyone listening to this, there’ll be show notes below. And if you pause, there’ll be a link in the show notes to that video as well for everyone to start out with. And of course if they want to go deeper, you got books you’ve got, like you said, Yeah, longer stuff.

Paul 49:51
So for the beginner, let me recommend my second book as well. It’s called The Essential Guide to doing Yeah, okay. This says my internet connection is unstable. Can you still hear me?

Guy 50:03
Yeah, no, it’s all good. It’s all good.

Paul 50:05
Okay. Maybe he’s referring to the person on the internet is unstable.

Guy 50:09
Yeah. Exactly.

Paul 50:14
Yeah. So anyway, the book is called the Essential Guide to remote viewing. And it also has a couple of chapters on how to do basic remote viewing. Plus a lot of other things, it tries to answer any question that someone new to the field might have. So

Guy 50:29
yeah, amazing. And I got one last question for you. Before we wrap up the show and ask everyone on the show, Paul, and that is, with everything we’ve covered today, is there anything you’d like to leave our listeners to ponder on?

Paul 50:48
You should have told me earlier that I would have had an answer. That’s anything to have them ponder on? Um, well, I guess it ties in with what I was just talking about a few minutes ago. And that is, think about what it actually mean. If you were to discover that you could indeed perceive things on the other side of the planet without any what we might refer to as normal connection whatsoever. No sensory connection. You don’t can’t see smell, hear. Feel it? And no technical connection, no. Closer to TV, no, no satellite, broadcasting like that. Just something on the other side of the planet. Think what that would mean, about you what that would say about you as a person that you could do something like that. And then extend that to everybody on the planet. What does that say about the human race in general? About what we how little we expect from the human race? How much we should perhaps expect from them? Hmm,

Guy 51:54
beautiful. Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. Mate. I am. I’ll make sure I’m there. Your link to your website is below as well. But the best place where you because you got a couple of websites, and I think don’t do

Paul 52:07
well. Well, the main one is rviewer.com. So the letter R and the word viewer, so our vi e w e r.com. That’s everything. Everything is there somewhere if you can find it. Now the beauty of that website is there’s a lot of stuff on there for free, right? So you can, you can go up to where it says remote viewing in depth. And there’s a lot of information about remote viewing there, just in general, which you don’t have to pay anything for. There’s no membership fee or anything like that. For people, so so of course I want to endorse my websites. But But I’m also i’m also affiliated with two other organizations, the parapsychology Association, three other organizations, the parapsychology Association, the Rhine Research Center, and the International remote viewing Association. And all of these are nonprofit organizations that are trying to push the envelope forward on all of this stuff, extrasensory perception, remote viewing all of that and all of them are worthy organizations. The remote viewing Association has a an annual conference where in the not when it’s not caught COVID time right. People from all over the world come together and talk about remote viewing and experience it. The Rhine Research Center is actually the oldest parapsychology research. The oldest scientific parapsychology research organization in the United States, I think the American Society of Psychical Research might be a little older. But there it was founded by JB Ryan, who is the father of modern parapsychology research. And parapsychology association is the main is kind of the the premier organization that, that have researchers in the field all other really well. So I love to give them a shout out as I just did. So

Guy 54:00
we’ll make sure that they’re in the show notes as well for everyone. So there’s plenty for that for everyone to dive deep if they want to check out plastic workout. You’re busy. Totally. Paul, I just want to really say thank you and I deeply appreciate you coming on the show today and sharing your experience and your expertise with this work and and yeah, who knows whether what would this will inspire so much appreciated. Thank

Paul 54:24
you, Paul. You’re quite welcome. Most have to be on it. Maybe sometime in the future. We can do it again.

Guy 54:29
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, buddy.

Paul 54:31
You bet.