Please note, this is an automated transcript so it is not 100% accurate.

Guy (00:10):
Lawrence, welcome to the podcast.

Lawrence (00:13):
Oh, my pleasure to be with you, Guy.

Guy (00:15):
I, I mean, we’ve been just been talking off air for 10 minutes and I thought, Wow, we’ve gotta get this in the podcast. There’s too much good information already coming out from our conversation. And look, I think a great place to start, Lawrence is, and I ask everyone this, but if you were at li at an intimate dinner party right now and you sat next to a stranger and they asked you, What do you do for a living? Or what’s your passion, what would you say,

Lawrence (00:40):
<laugh>? Well, my, my passion is transformation. And, you know, that has guided my life, both in terms of how I got into clinical work and PhD and studies in youngian psychology, but in a deeper level, uh, personal experiences that I had of, you know, really transcendent personal phenomenon beginning as a child. And so that guided me also into eastern traditions studying, uh, with great masters in the, in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and the yoga tradition, spending time years in India training as a, as a monk in India. Uh, and that has all informed the work that I do. Everything from creating a nonprofit, uh, meditation foundation to the clinical work, to the teachings and retreats that I offer. Wow.

Guy (01:30):
Incredible. What was the, the drive behind that to go, like, to go and live in India and become a mank and, and go through all these different teachings, you know, Cause there certainly a, a lifestyle adjustment to the regular Western.

Lawrence (01:44):
Oh, yes, yes, it is <laugh>, um, <laugh>. So it’s good. We’re gonna dive right into the deep end here. Um, because what drew me was these transcendent experiences. I mean, what you would think of as experiences of the divine, um, known by so many different names, whether it’s God, goddess, universal consciousness. Uh, but I had begun, I had actually had some experiences as a child like that, um, that many of the people around me had no understanding about, but they stayed with me. Uh, and then later, you know, as I, as I began university, I really got into the practices of yoga and meditation. And they really opened the doors to that. Oh, we have direct access to the infinite. I mean, the whole purpose of yoga means union and it means union with the infinite as the divine, as the truth of who we are.

Lawrence (02:37):
And I was having very powerful experiences of that. Uh, and so, so much so, I mean, it, it, it, I write about it in my book, The Soul’s Journey, Guidance from the Divine within. But there was a critical point when I was thought to be dying. I was in a hospital in New York City. Um, they thought I was dying of Lympho sarcoma. I was 24 years old. Um, and I had one of these, again, transcendent experiences of, um, this great master that I had studied with Mowar, uh, coming and this divine figure from when I was a little kid that I used to call the Lady of Light. And then being with me in my bedside, um, and having this extraordinary experience of healing at, you know, this major university hospital in New York City. Um, that was mind boggling. And, and in that moment, cuz it was such a profound experience of having to surrender. I mean, things were just, you know, when when doctors are saying, We think you have lympho sarcoma, you’re gonna be dead in two months. Um, and that was a follow up to an experience that I had when I was 12 in kind of a meditative state Wow. Where I was told you’re not going to live past until you get to 25. And here I am, 24 and two months, was gonna put it right before my 20 birthday.

Guy (04:04):
So, So did you have lympho sarcoma at the time

Lawrence (04:07):
Or So? Well, thought they thought I had it. So they had done, um, x-rays. I had these huge, uh, high lymph nodes in my chest. Um, and then they did a biopsy and everything. And well, but in that, before they got to the final diagnosis, I had this experience with this presence, you know, in the form of both the teacher and this, um, feminine face of the divine there. And it was like, don’t worry, it’s all gonna be fine. It’s, it’s all good. And I had, I had offered a prayer, I honestly, uh, listen, I don’t know what’s going on. Um, I had just met this master the year before and I said, you know, I don’t know who you are or what you are, um, and, and including this lady of life, but all I can do is surrender and if I make it through this, my life is yours.

Lawrence (05:00):
Um, and, um, I went into this extraordinary state was just bathed in light, um, and hours came out later was still in the hospital. They did more tests. They did biopsies. They had to open up my test to it, some surgery here to, to do a biopsy on lymph nodes. And they said, Oh, you got, you have this other disease, um, sarcoidosis, it probably won’t kill you right away. It’ll kill you later. Um, and I crashed doctors and I went, Nah, this is done. And, and within months it all disappeared. Everything was gone. Uh, the h of lymph nodes to Sarco, everything gone. Um, and so that was, now I was, I was in training to become a youngian analyst. I was engaged. Um, but I gave my word, I am a man of my word, <laugh>. And I left. I uh, I left everything.

Lawrence (05:59):
I left my fiance, I left, uh, my work, I left my career development. I said, You know what, this is real. Uh, and I went to India and um, it was the first time I’d seen that teacher other than a brief meeting. And I’d had a year before, and I told him what was happening. He says, Oh, you don’t have to leave. He says, The divine is with you wherever you are, it encompasses your entire life. Now you need to do the practices to really know that. Um, and so that was the whole shift, uh, that wound up then taking me deeper and deeper into those practices. Um, and, and actually then later on I did spend some time there training to be a singer. My poor, my poor fiance. Um, she later married me, um, not long after, and then I left again to become a monk cuz I had this strong call, um, that I just have to serve the divine. I don’t know what that means, but if this is the way to be 100% focused, dedicated on doing that, I’ll do that. And again, my teacher was very wise and said, you know, here was an into collecting disciples or sawer. And he says, No, you know, you have the inner son. Yes. That’s what you need. So live your life and live this into the world. Teach this into the world. Um, and that’s what I’ve been doing ever since the last 40 plus 50 years. Um, so that’s in a nutshell, <laugh>,

Guy (07:30):
I, Laura, I feel like we could talk for hours, right? Like that’s incredible. I I did not expect you to say that. So between, you know, when you were born and 24 before you ended up in hospital and that profound experience you mentioned you had many other experiences along the way. Yeah. Which is in, and obviously you, you remembered them and kept them with you. Cuz it’s quite, Cause I remember having experiences as a small child and I still, but I suppressed them. I never really did anything, you know, with it. Right. And did, did at any stage between before that happened, you think you’d just go mad or like, something’s happening? Or did it just feel very

Lawrence (08:08):
Oh, it was, it was so completely Well, I knew, I, I thought it was normal cuz I thought everybody had that. Um, so I didn’t think I was unusual. But then as I talk to people, they would go, What, you know, <laugh>, I mean including, um, this lady of light. So, so here I am three or four years old, laying in my, still in my crib in my room with my, you know, brother and sister and in New York and raging thunderstorm going on outside. I wake up, I love thunderstorms, is a little kid. And this little lightning flashing and the thunder booming and the rain going down the gutter. And I’m laying in bed and, and I opened my eyes and there’s this woman, this beautiful benevolent woman standing next to my, my crib, looking over me. And, and you know, you’re three who’s gonna be standing there in the middle of the night, other, a new mother.

Lawrence (09:01):
And I go, Ma and she just stands there and just looking, just so sweet, so loving. And I say, Ma and she’s just looking nice, loving. And then I notice when the lightning flashes, she disappears when it’s dark, I could see it. She’s made of pure light. So in the brightness of a flash of lightning, she’s doesn’t stand out. She stands out in the dark cuz she’s made of light. And now I go, Hmm, my little brain that’s not like ma <laugh>. So I go, Ma and she just stands there. And then I really, I let out a scream and my mother comes, I hear her door open from across the hall, open the door into our room. As soon she walks in, the lady of light disappears. And I start telling my mind this, There was a lady of light. She’s going, Yeah, yeah, young <laugh> kid, you’re just your imagination.

Lawrence (10:01):
I said, No, no, no. This was a lady of light st And for years I talked about the Lady of Light. My brothers remember, my sisters remember. I said, No, this was a lady of light. Um, and I didn’t know then she was gonna come back. I saw her again Oh. When I was about 18 or 19. Uh, but experiences like that, and then just the feeling of presence, I often felt just like protected. Like there was this kind of a hand of grace, uh, on my shoulder. Um, and, uh, another unusual experience happened when I was in like kindergarten in Sunday school. Right. And, you know, little kid going to Sunday school, you know, parents drop you off, you go down, you go into the basement where, you know, they paint the, do the cement block walls. And it’s a little Sunday school and a little church.

Lawrence (10:52):
And, and I’m getting there and you know, I’m like five. And they sit, yeah. Every boy and girl, you know, they separate just cuz the boys are always gonna play with each other. Um, and I’m sitting there and the teacher’s talking about Christ and everything. And I actually had a, I had a real profound feeling for Christ. I just, I felt like a real love as a little kid. I didn’t know why. I never thought about why. But I’m, I’m sitting there and the, and the teachers, you know, just like nice middle-aged lady talking about Jesus. And I look over and I see Jesus standing there, like where the wall is. And it, it was, seemed all right to me. I mean, I just started elementary school and the principal used to come and stand in the hall, you know, stand in the doorway. I look in, I thought, Oh wait, he’s like in charge of this. He must be like, he must come and visit and just like, look in, make sure everything’s cool. And so I see Jesus staying there, but the lady, the teacher is talking about Jesus in the past tense. And that didn’t make sense to me. And so little kid, I go, Why are you talking to him about him like that? He’s standing right there.

Lawrence (12:02):
And the teacher again, Oh, Lawrence, yeah, you have a good grand. And I was like, and I looked over and Jesus started to fade away. And all of it was left was the cement block wall. And I felt like I had been robbed in some way. I, you know, as a little kid, I couldn’t have put words to it. But I was like, but later on in life, when I thought about it, I thought that was the problem. My problem with the church, um, God was dead and God, Jesus was dead and gone. Uh, and that’s not the truth. The truth is the living presence is here and now Christ consciousness is here and now, uh, and we can call it by any number of different names. I mean my, you know, as I pursued the studies in Eastern western traditions, and so the many names that we can call the one, but it’s still, it’s always for one, uh, wearing all these different faces to try and reach to us to try and make itself known.

Lawrence (13:04):
So that was, you know, part of what informed my process of discovery, and especially getting into youngian psychology and studying that, uh, uh, training in, in the, the, the work of, uh, the great mythologist Joseph Campbell, so that we could see, you know, what he wrote about in a series called The Masks of the Gods, The different faces, the hero of the thousand faces that he wrote about. So that we can see that these, uh, are archetypal forms that inform our life. Uh, and they’re within each and every one of us. So when I really got into the eastern tradition around kini, which just makes it very explicit, kini is the power of the infinite to know itself as the infinite. That’s what it is. Um, and it’s inherent to every one of us. We’re so used to, uh, the restricted kind of, uh, consciousness that lets us know our individuality. Our, I’m a man, I’m a woman. I have this role, I have that. I’m a father, I’m a son, I’m a husband, I’m a wife. Whatever those things are, that’s ordinary consciousness and allows us to know that. But the boundless consciousness that lets us know the infinite, the divine as ourself and everyone and everything, that’s what I wanted.

Guy (14:28):
Wow.

Guy (14:31):
Listening to you speak and share that journey. And, and especially as you described that at the end, the old me would’ve had to hear that a hundred times and think, why is he, why is Lauren’s what’s like, you know, And I’d confuse myself and, and until I had my own boundless experience, and then bring that wisdom back in. Yeah. Go, Ah, wow. I, I, like, I’m sitting here just nodding my head going, Wow. You know? Yeah. And that’s the difference. I, I guess the burning question that was just coming to me all the time when listening is, why is it that you, as a child and growing up, you were able to just witness and connect with the divine consciousness like that, Right. Where, where others, we, we are not like, like we’re not even aware that it, it’s even possible. Like it’s even exist. Like we so caught up on paying the bills and, you know, the stress is daily life.

Lawrence (15:26):
Right? Right. Well, I think two things. One is we begin to have experiences that let us know why. Uh, but the eastern traditions, unlike the Western and especially, you know, scientific materialism that sort of really pervades is the dominant paradigm for understanding our existence. Uh, but the eastern traditions of yoga, meditation, Hinduism, Buddhism, they’re, they’re based on, uh, the experience. And for them, the reality that once we begin to experience ourself, that we have multiple lifetimes, we are evolving across lifetimes. And so all it means is, you know, even when somebody has a spontaneous awakening, cuz I get consulted by people all over the world, how spontaneous awakening, well spontaneous is what the ordinary mind calls it. Because it didn’t know the lifetimes of practices you did to cultivate the field for that to blossom in this lifetime. So what we see, when people are coming in with different orders of already sort of knowing or experiencing or opening to that, these are the fruits of past lifetimes.

Lawrence (16:40):
In the yoga tradition, they’re called yogi brushes. So yoga realized that you, you’re not necessarily gonna get finished in one life, but the good karmas, the good impacts, the good consequences of your practices are going to continue to support your evolution across lifetimes. So the next lifetime you’re gonna pick up from there. You’re not conscious of it necessarily, and in most instances not. But at some point it starts to progress and you start to be able to get, um, sort of those conscious experiences, even a past lives if they inform, uh, your practice in the moment.

Guy (17:20):
Got it. Okay. I, I gotta ask a big question then. What is the soul and the soul’s purpose

Lawrence (17:29):
Then? Well, the, the, so the soul, I i, if we think of it as a, um, a spark of the infinite array of the infinite, huh? It’s an emanation of the infinite and the, the infinite. In order to know what, what it is to be finite has to take a different form. The infinite knows infinitude all encompassing unity consciousness. Eternally. Continuously. That’s the ground of our being. That was what we would call Buddha mind. That’s what we would call Christ consciousness. That’s what’s what we call unity consciousness. Um, but to know what it is to be finite so the infinite isn’t bound, which means it can know what it is to be finite. How does it do that? It needs a vehicle for taking on limitations. That vehicle is the limiting form of consciousness. So it creates the vehicle necessary to know and explore all the richness of what it is to be finding, you know, we, you are the eyes, the ears, the nose, the body, the sense of the infinite, knowing what it is to be guy, you know, the divine one, the note, oh, what it is to be guy, to have your life, your children, your relationships took your form to do that.

Lawrence (18:56):
It takes each person’s form, each being’s form to be able to experience that. So all ced beings are the sensory apparatus of the infinite operating in a finite universe.

Guy (19:11):
Wow.

Lawrence (19:12):
Yeah.

Guy (19:14):
So then by becoming from the infinite to

Lawrence (19:21):
The guy,

Guy (19:23):
The finite into that point, like you say, Right? And this experience is like, I always kind of look at myself kind of now like, like a nerve ending too consciousness mm-hmm. <affirmative> that I’m, I’m just having an experience. And, and there’s, there’s a, there’s a massive da data bank of information. Are we having these experiences, whether they’re painful or joyful or, you know, the, the whole spectrum of emotions that we can experience to, for the, the divine to be able to expand upon itself to continue growth and learning. Is that, is that why we go through these

Lawrence (19:58):
Challenges? No, it’s, um, the growth and learning is the evolution of that finite piece of consciousness. The infinite includes everything.

Guy (20:10):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Lawrence (20:11):
Everything already. There’s no growth possible. The infinite can’t become more infinite. Infinite is already boundless deposit that it was going to grow would mean it was finite. It’s the finite consciousness it created for exploring you, um, that is transformed over time and evolves, explores all the different parameters of what it is to be finite. All the different, uh, you know, beings that it can inhabit all the different forms of pain, suffering, everything, uh, that exists in a finite world. Until it gets to that point, uh, where it’s time where it goes, you know, I’ve exhausted this. I’ve exhausted this domain. I had somewhere in me remembers there was something much bigger. Yeah. That’s, that’s the point of awakening, right? Right. So in the yoga tradition, they, they sort of take the whole, um, evolution of consciousness across lifetimes. You can, you can put it in sort of two phases.

Lawrence (21:23):
Uh, one is called sovereignty and one is called ty. Sovereignty means with form. So that’s the whole exploratory, um, growing. I’m learning, I’m exploring, I’m taking on experi. Well, I had horrible, I’ve been, I’ve been the victim. I’ve been the perpetrator, I’ve been the, you know, everything there is to be, I’ve been, That’s sovereignty. Ty is going, Okay, I’ve got all that. But there’s intuition. There’s a knowing, There’s an innate knowing because consciousness is always a part of the infinite consciousness. There’s never any separation. There can’t be. Right. And that part starts the, we start the tune into it. You go, Oh, that’s what I want. I, I’m done with all this exploration. What was that? I got a vague sort feeling for it or longing for it. I don’t even mean, I may not even be able to put it in the words as the youngs soul, but I know there’s something more, more mean, more part something.

Lawrence (22:30):
Uh, that’s that point that shifts from sovereignty to Ty. And it’s marked by the awakening of K. So in the yogi system, that awakening is the return begins. The return journey. Ty means shedding forms, letting go, letting go. Cause all through the taking on forms, we’re identifying I’m a this, I’m a, that I’m a not this, I’m a not that I am of also this. I wanna be that. I like to be this. I think I’ll explore me in that. It’s all taking on form. Ty is letting go, letting go, letting go. We let go into freedom. We let go into expansiveness. Cause it’s already there. The mind’s not gonna create it. It has to let go of its limitations to experience the finitude of what’s already fully present here and now.

Guy (23:23):
Wow. And it’s the letting go that can terrify us half the time.

Lawrence (23:27):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because our identity is really tied up in the limitations. We may sha against them. We may feel the pain of it. We may wish we could get free of it, but when we start to get free, the poor mind goes, Oh, wait a minute. I’m not sure I wanted that <laugh>.

Guy (23:44): Yeah. How, how would you, you mention, we’ve mentioned condo a few times through the, the conversation and Yeah. Um, how, how would you describe that to somebody? Cause I remember hearing that word many years ago. My, my, my wife, my girlfriend at the time, What it take me to a condo class? And I was like, Right,

Lawrence (24:02):
Right.

Guy (24:03):
What think it it do to me? That kind of thing. Right,

Lawrence (24:05):
Right. Well, so kini is a Sanskrit term for this energy of consciousness, um, potential that is present in every human being, all beings really. Um, it’s really seen as the foundation of our existence. And, and you could substitute Holy Spirit, you could substitute shak eye, you could say cheat. It’s the conscious energy, um, that resides and gives us literally life, all life. So in the yoga texts and traditions that have really explored it and given more, um, definition to it, you know, more description, like they’ve explored a foreign country and come up with a map and a description of the territory, um, then you can see that, well, kini in a sense, it’s residing in everyone. And it has sort of two aspects. One is already awake. It’s kundalini that just allowed you to touch your eye, um, or shake your bet. Um, it’s the, it’s the basic functioning of the entire mind body system is the creation of kini.

Lawrence (25:15):
What’s referred to more classically as kini is the potential, the the of what’s often metaphorically spoken of as the aspect of kini that is asleep and is going to awaken. And it’s a metaphor, um, based on our experience. You know, when we’re asleep, we could be in a dream. We could just be in asleep. We wake up in the morning and open our eyes. Well, we become aware of a reality that’s already there. We can create that reality. It’s already there. You just woke up to it. Kini is the power of the infinite innate within each one of us. And eat within you to let you experience the reality of your infinite divine nature as everything, everybody, everything about yourself. That power of consciousness, also known as the power of grace, also known as the grace bestow power of the infinite, the grace that reveals and transforms.

Lawrence (26:11):
So it’s also known as the power of transformation and revelation. Uh, and all of yoga. All of yoga is based on all the classical forms of yoga there. Hot, the yoga, Montreal yoga, la yoga, Roger yoga, the four classic forms of yoga all have as their basis p and all had as their esoteric goal, the awakening of that. Right. Uh, what’s often called p yoga is a brand name is different. I mean, that was more based on, uh, yoga practices for moving prana, the energy related to breath and, uh, making use OFin is, and different breathing techniques and things. But the ancient classic Gini is about the awakening of this profound consciousness and the spontaneous yoga that evolves over it, because it was, it was recognized. The ancient yogis saw that, oh, once some something wakes up in a person, they start doing spontaneous osseous. They start doing spontaneous breath proma things, mantras can just be emerging in their consciousness. So all the forms of yoga start to emerge spontaneously because the root power of yoga is kini.

Guy (27:27):
Wow. I, I think I’ve said, Wow, about 10 times on this podcast. I just caught myself again. Um, should we,

Lawrence (27:35):
Should

Guy (27:35):
We fear it? And, and my, my, I asked this question because I, looking back on my journey, the, there there was a part of me like just constantly getting pulled to, I don’t know why I, I’ve gotta do this or go in this direction. I can’t make sense of it. And at one point it felt so relieving, but on another part it felt so terrifying. Right.

Lawrence (28:00):
And

Guy (28:00):
I was in this constant battle <laugh>.

Lawrence (28:03):
Right, right. You

Guy (28:04):
Know? Right. And, and then I had that experience of my own pun awakening. And again, it was, there was everything all at once. But I had a foundation that I’d been working on to be able to navigate that without Right. You know?

Lawrence (28:21):
Right. So, yeah. So, so really it’s, it’s not kini to be feared. Kini is the grace bestowing power of the infinite. It’s only intent is to allow us to experience the infinite love, the boundless rapture, the extraordinary compassion. It’s what Buddhist referred to as the four measurables, uh, boundless wisdom, boundless loving compassion, uh, boundless, um, joy. You know, this boundless unshakeable equanimity. That’s our true nature. So kini only wants to bestow that upon us and clean up this instrument so we can know it and walk it into the world. The mind is the instrument that gets afraid because it’s a shift from our ordinary identity into adding the infinite to it. Now, for the little mind, it fears annihilation, it fears getting lost. It’s so, it’s driven by fear. And the two sort of emotional states that most distort or most, um, sort of obstruct in a way, the unfolding, the graceful unfolding of kini Shakti Shakti’s, the power of consciousness, um, are fear and anger.

Lawrence (29:52):
So people’s, some scars, people’s old patterns of fear and anger will both get triggered to get cleared out. Uh, but they’ll also get in the way. And people start having, it’s almost like a feedback loop. Like if your mic was too close to a speaker and all of a sudden it starts screaming, well, that’s the mind screaming in its own negative feedback loop, getting freaked out by what’s going on. And it’s partly why the, the awakening of kini and that process was always held as an esoteric one. Uh, because it was meant to be in the context with a teacher who really, genuinely understood it, um, and could and was selfless. They had no hidden agenda themselves. They didn’t want anything. Um, they’ve been through that process. They’re there to selflessly serve. Right. Uh, and, and so there’s not gonna be any exploitation. There’s not gonna be any weirdness that we see too much of in this age.

Lawrence (30:49):
Um, so the context that helped a person navigate this was a deeply and profoundly trusting and loving relationship with a teacher who is saying, you know, this is gonna be the unfolding of your divine self to come to know that in its fullness. Now, here, let me guide, let me point out some, you know, here are some tarpits. We don’t wanna get stuck there. Now here’s a cliff. Don’t go off that. Um, so we needed that kind of guidance, just a very caring, skillful guide to walk with this as we would. And if we walked into the wilderness somewhere, um, well, you wouldn’t walk in if you had any discrimination unless you had a guide. Uh, now here’s the interesting thing about that, what I mentioned before about the yoga tradition, talking about yogi brush dress. People who had started the yoga process, you know, lifetimes ago, and the practices have continued to benefit them.

Lawrence (31:51):
That means in some life they’re gonna wake up. Kini is gonna start to happen, and it’s gonna happen more frequently because the numbers of people doing yoga over lifetimes has increased. So we’re seeing more spontaneous awakenings, uh, meaning again, people reaping the fruits of their past, the sona, the spiritual practices they’ve done in past life, but they might be in a life now where they look around and there’s not a context for understanding that. Uh, or there’s a context that makes it look pathological or it’s a context that they were gonna get judged for. Um, and so people need, you know, good information, support, guidance around that.

Guy (32:34):
Does it only happen when you are ready or the, the soul’s ready? Or is Cause I see people chasing it as well. Right. And I, I wanna have this, you know, and there might be in the intellect of mind, they’ve read every book, they’ve listened to every podcast. Right. But it’s all, you know, just information Right at that point for the mind.

Lawrence (32:54):
Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the longing to know is grace itself belonging to know who we are beyond this that attracts us to looking is, is already the flowering of grace. That, that power saying, it’s time. Now you’re gonna start looking. But now we have to develop key to, to spiritual practice. Soden note it’s called in, in Eastern traditions is what’s called viveka. Viveka means discrimination. It’s a be it’s the, it’s the ability to discriminate between the real and the unreal, uh, between the pleasant and the good, uh, between what’s going to lead us towards the truth, and what are we just chasing after the mind. So discrimination is something that we have to and do develop, uh, through trial and error and through working with teachers and studying and practice. Uh, so to, to begin with, a person’s seeking may look really indiscriminate. Uh, let me try, let me try everything.

Lawrence (34:02):
Let me try shamonic rituals. Let me try shamonic drugs. Let me try this. Let me try that. Let me, let me do anything. Let me, how do I get out of this box? I know I’m in a box, but I don’t know how to get out. So, so I understand people’s long to get out the box. Um, but there is gonna be ways that genuinely get us free and there’s otherwise is gonna damage us. Um, so we have to have that discernment and that discrimination and understand. But yes, the real awakening only happens when it’s ready. Uh, you can’t, kini is literally the power of the infinite to create everything. The ego mind can’t order kini around some of these old sort of patriarchal overlays that were came later. If you study sort of the evolution of some of the systems I know that came from the goddess traditions and kini is one, then as the patriarchal traditions sort of put their spin on it, they became much more controlling and much more, um, uh, authoritarian.

Lawrence (35:08):
And that’s where you see that shift, um, in some of the ancient literature. Uh, or, you know, as that, those patriarchal traditions get, and they’re gonna try and force the awakening of k it’s literally ancient yoga text. You have to beat on the door and wake her up, you know? And then, then you have to be careful, uh, because all ho horrible things could happen. Well, yeah. If you try and beat somebody up, what do you expect? You know, <laugh>. Yeah. You don’t get the perfect experience. Uh, my teacher was like, approach her with love, with reverence, with awe. She’s the goddess of the universe. She’s the grace bestowing power of the infinite. You’re going to try and come in and order her around and pound this thing into with, you know, um, PMA in this and force. And that. It’s just, it’s, it’s just an extension of the, the ego minds attempts of how it tries to dominate and control things. It’s not gonna work. It’s not gonna be pretty.

Guy (36:12):
Mm. What do you, I, I guess the question I can ask you is, what did you do with that? Once you have those experiences? And I, and I like looking up my life, once I had an experience like that, I remember, um, checking my emails a couple of days later and thinking, Oh my God, there’s still, you know, the world is still moving. Like, I still had almost problems mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the world outside me didn’t change, but the world inside me changed dramatically. Right. And the, and then it’s like navigating that terrain back into your life to then, um, you know, I ended up selling my company. I’m, I’ve recorded this podcast, but before that, I would’ve been terrified of all the idea of any of this. But, you know, so I guess the question is, what do you do with that once you have it? And, um, how did it impact your life as well?

Lawrence (37:06):
Well, there’s, it’s a, it’s a great question, and there’s two components to it. Uh, one is the ego mind is, is the organ of doing for our ordinary existence. So it’s first way of orienting towards anything is what do I do with it? I’ve experienced, what do I do? People come with experiences. I, I think I should do this. I think I, you know, I should be a healer. I’m not, I’m sure I’m gonna be a healer now. Oh, I think I should do this. I think I should run away. I think I should do this. I should go live in a k I go on ashram. I should do, do do. The ordinary mind gets lost immediately by having to try and figure out what to do when primarily the first thing is, who are you? How do you know your true nature as a being, not a doer?

Lawrence (37:58):
What’s the infinitude of being This instrument is here to serve that, But we have to know that so that then our actions can be guided gracefully in the service of that, in the service of both. How is it gonna transform my life, my experience, my sense of who I am, Meaning how am I gonna bring this, these extraordinary experiences of boundless love, compassion, wisdom, um, serenity, peace into a world so afflicted. Hmm. And so that in the Eastern traditions, we, they help to give us an orienting map towards this because the, the mind on its own doesn’t have a map. It has just old patterns of doing. I haven’t experience, what do I do with it? That’s the you mind. Uh, because it’s, it’s both trying to do and it’s trying to figure out, well, on, on a, on some levels, how do I make use of it?

Lawrence (38:59):
Um, how do I even exploit it? If people go the, the, the quintessential ordinary ego mind is about domination and control, prediction and control. When it loses its ability to predict and control, it gets very freaked out. Uh, it’s one of the things that freaks the mind out originally when couldn’t leave first going out, because this is not predictable and it’s not under the ego mind’s control. And that’s one of the most fundamentally frightening things about it. Until we know, oh, finally my divine self is gonna be in control, my job is to let go and be in harmony. Um, so that in the eastern traditions, the great purpose of a human life is to know and to serve, to know the infinite that the divine as your own self and all that is, and then to serve that with every breath, no matter where your life is, because there’s no place that’s more divine than where you are right here, right now.

Lawrence (40:05):
So bringing that consciousness in to whatever that might be, yes, it can, can transform us. Um, I started doing, you know, volunteering. I was doing programs and prisons, uh, working with, uh, inmates serving life sentences for murder and seeing them get transformed, uh, when they have an awakening experience. Um, having one inmate that I was teaching just as a volunteer in a federal penitentiary, say, My gosh, my whole life, my whole life, this is a man who was 31 years old. He had already spent 17 years of his life in prison and were serving life sentence without parole for murder. Right. His whole life was the worst kind of condition to mind you can think of. Cuz he was conditioned to think he was a piece of crap. And he had been told his whole life and he acted like it. So he said to me after a program one night, he said, I used to go in on Sunday nights.

Lawrence (41:08):
He said, You know, my whole life I’ve been told what a, I don’t wanna use the swear words, but it was full of, you know, colorful language. Uh, and he said, and I live like that. He said, I deserve to be in here. Uh, he said, But you, you, you brought in a message. He said, You’re divine as you are. And you came in with these practices of mantra, alive, awaken mantra that began to give me, he says, My cell has feels like a monk cell. And he started ex telling me these beautiful experiences of him and his cell being bathed in light, uh, and transformed right in a cell steel and concrete cell of a federal penitentiary. And this man was having those kinds of experiences. And he said, You know, I don’t spend my whole life in here. I know that and I know I deserve it. He says, But I’m freer now than I’ve ever been. He said, Now, yeah, the guards are still gonna tell me what a piece of crap I am and insult me and everything. But inside now I know, I know the truth and I can see the truth in them as well. That is a magnitude of transformation that everyone is capable of because of this innate power of living presence that in the yoga tradition we call kini,

Guy (42:45):
Where do you feel or think the world is heading? Cause I think exactly what you just said, Wow. What if we could all just touch, have that experience for one moment and then start to see it in? Cuz if there’s one thing it did for me is, is I have compassion for other people and where they’re at without the judgment, without the, you know, you know, I, I mean I still get angry or I get caught in my head, but it, it’s fleeting compared to the old self and seeing that method and I think

Lawrence (43:21):
Wow. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that’s part of what kini invites us, this shift from being so identified with this vehicle that we’ve spent lifetimes identified with and starting to say, No, the real locus, the real center of your identity is the divine, the infinite. And now we’re gonna clean up this instrument so it serves better and better becomes more and more transparent to the truth of who you are. So you can live that into the world. Then we can create change in this world. This is in eastern traditions. This is known as a dark age poly yoga that the fourth of four ages, that cycles over and over. But it’s a dark age, meaning ignorance. Um, the absence of dharma, it’s called a dharma. Dharma means righteous living, living in, in accord with the highest nature and respecting that and seeing that in everyone. Right?

Lawrence (44:16):
Well, we don’t see that. We see, you know, fascists trying to take over and control things. We see people acting out hate and, uh, violence as if they’re entitled to do that. Um, so it is a very dark age and which makes it much more incumbent upon us to do something. There’s a beautiful, uh, metaphor or symbol in Eastern traditions, um, and it’s sim it, it’s around what’s called the cow of dharma. You know, we think of the sacred cow in India, Dharma being righteous living. So the sacred cow of dharma in these four ages in the first age is called saki Yuga, the age of truth. The cow of dharma stands at or full oral four legs and gives the milk of, you know, wisdom to all, but each success of age things get worse. And symbolically she loses a leg in the fourth yoga or yoga she has, but one leg, the poor cow of DMA is on the ground.

Lawrence (45:22):
Uh, and so deeply afflicted the metaphor is she can no longer stand on her own. We have to stand for dharma. That’s what we’re called to in this world. We are the legs that move, that dharma, that power of compassion, of love, of kindness, of wisdom, of truth into the world, uh, nonviolently, uh, the living presence, but the strong presence, the assertion of that, of walking it into the halls of government, walking it into corporate headquarters. Now taking it wherever we go into prisons. Um, you know, so, you know, I’ve been invited to give programs and everything from, you know, corporations to hospitals, to prisons, to hospices. Um, any place we can offer this whole other view of what’s the truth of who we are that can set us free. Everybody who’s inflicting suffering on others is in deeper suffering themselves and is suffering from not knowing the fullness of their own being and scrambling after thinking they have to have what somebody else already has.

Guy (46:40):
Hmm. For anybody listening to this and they’re just nodding their head going, you know, there’s that knowing and, and getting drawn to the conversation and everything that’s been spoken about. Where would one start? What would be a simple practice or, or something to go, you know, try this today

Lawrence (47:00):
And Yeah. Well, uh, I mean I had, so I make free practices readily available. So the souls journey.com has it, the nonprofit, the aum car meditation.org. Uh, we have a YouTube channel with all free videos with all kinds of practices freely given the mantra freely given. But mantra is key in the kini tradition. Sacred sound is key in all traditions. And mantra is one expression of that. Cuz mantra is seen as literally a throb of the infinite in sound form. It’s known as the sound form of the divine mantra. The word mantra means that which protects what is it? Protect us from the ignorance of not knowing the truth of who we are. So when we take refuge, when we become absorbed in mantra, we’re becoming absorbed in the throb of the truth of who we are, the infinitude of our being. And it’s a very simple mantra that goes on all day long, all night long with the breath already we’re tuning into it by learning to repeat it with the breath. And it’s a two syllables. Ah hum. Ah hum. The breath comes in. So just silently in the mind as this, the breath is going ah, as it comes in, in hum that,

Lawrence (48:22):
Ah,

Lawrence (48:25):
That mantra means simply,

Lawrence (48:28):
Ah, yeah. I,

Lawrence (48:31):
Yeah. It’s the awareness of pure being. Everything that contracts us, that gives us pain, gives us the illusion of pleasure as a femoral as it might be comes after I am this, that, this other thing. I am man, I am a woman, I am the role I play in all the stuff that comes after that is an overlay. I’m a pure presence of being.

Lawrence (49:01):
Am. Right. So, you know, the Old Testament, when God spoke to Moses saying, when Moses asked, Who are you? I am that I am, that I am consciousness is the divine, is the inny, is the root of our being. We can come home to that and add that cuz yoga is additive. There’s times when we’re just going into those states because we need to separate out. Our consciousness has gotten infused with the mind and body. You have a mind, you’re not your mind. You have a body. You’re not limited by your body. Consciousness free of those containers can re expand to know its infinity, coming home to that awareness. Ah. Oh, that’s unshakeable, huh? That’s what Buddha talked about it as, as this boundless unshakable equanimity. I am. It resounds with wisdom, it resounds with compassion, it resounds with fullness. You’re not lacking anything. I am is the fullness of being. You’re not gonna be driven by this or that seeking this or that. You know, you’re in the fullness. Now you have a fullness to give to the universe. Hmm. That’s what we come home to.

Guy (50:22):
Wow. <laugh>. Incredible. Incredible. Thank you for sharing. Um, are you able to say your website out loud one more time? I’ll make sure it’s in the show notes as

Lawrence (50:33):
Sure. So the soul’s journey.com. So the Soul’s journey, it’s also the name of my first book was The Soul’s Journey Guidance from the Divine Within. So it was all about kini but also looking at it from an archetypal view and kind of a y but the soul’s journey, no apostrophe, uh, the soul’s journey.com. Uh, and that’s also has linked to the AUM car, all the free resources, you know, that I’m always putting out there, uh, all available through that.

Guy (51:02):
Yeah, I’m, I’m on your email list and I see you’re, you’re a busy man. There’s things coming through all the time. That’s just fantastic. Yeah. <laugh>. Um, last question for Lawrence before we tie things up is that with everything we’ve covered today, is there anything you would like to leave the listeners to ponder on?

Lawrence (51:21):
Yes. Um, dude, no, there’s never a time, there’s never a place when you’re not in the Divines embrace, you live being held by the divine where you would have no life at all. The breath wouldn’t even come in. That’s the root of your existence. Come home to that. But go of the mind and what you identified. Come home to the truth of who you are and live that fullness into your world exactly where you are. Cuz it is divine.

Guy (52:08):
Hmm. Thank you Lawrence. I can’t thank you. The reason why our podcast like having conversations like today is just been an absolute honor mate and um Wow. Incredible. It’s deeply appreciated and I have no doubt everyone listening today would’ve got a huge amount out of that. And we’ll definitely be checking out your work.

Lawrence (52:30):
For sure. Well, thank you. Just here to serve.

Guy (52:33):
Amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah,

Lawrence (52:35):
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Guy. Great to meet you.