Please note, this is an automated transcript so it is not 100% accurate.

Guy (00:00):
Hey Guy Lawrence here. Welcome to my podcast. My awesome guest today is Dr. Jason Loken, and he has studied naturopathic medicine, osteopathy and also integrative medicine. And what do we talk about today? Spirit spirituality. So you could tell at which direction I took it in. Uh, they reached out to me and I checked out Jason’s work and, and loved him. And when I jumped on the podcast, can you believe it? We were both wearing bio geometry necklaces and both wearing almost identical t-shirts. And when that happened, we knew that this podcast was meant to be. We have an amazing discussion and we also get into the work of David Hawkins as well, who was one of his mentors. So lots to cover today. Uh, if you wanna find out more about what we do here and myself in Australia and Europe, cause we’ll be in Portugal this July, 2023, running a six day retreat.

Guy (00:51):
Anyway, all the links are below. You can, uh, join us in our one day workshops, our retreats, and we even have a seven days of meditation for free. And also coaching programs as well. There’s plenty in there. Please kick the li links below to find out more. Enjoy the show. Let me know your thoughts and the comments. If you’re watching YouTube subscribe, like, I dunno. Hit buttons. Help us get the word out there as deeply appreciated. And of course, share this episode if you do find a lot out of it as well. Enjoy this show with Jason. See you soon. Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Jason (01:35):
Thanks so much, guy. Great to be here.

Guy (01:37):
I’m, I’m excited to explore where this conversation goes today. When you’re, um, your, your team reached out to me and, uh, I started digging into your website and your content and everything that you’ve putting out to the world. And I thought, boy, this, this man’s taken functional medicine to the next level. Like you <laugh> you explore so many aspects, um, which is beautiful thing to see, to see. Um, I’m curious to know,

Jason (02:06):
Have you

Guy (02:06):
Always been like that or have you found yourself as you’ve lent into functional medicine over the years that this work has, you know, seeped its way in over time?

Jason (02:18):
Yeah, I mean it’s, it’s been a, it, like anything, it’s a journey, you know, and it’s kind of always evolving. But when, when I kind of go back to it, I think, where did I first really get interested in, in functional, or I would even say more like integrative medicine, cuz I feel like functional’s still a little bit more like tied in with more of the, the biochemistry a little bit more and that, which is great. But when I think of integrative, I really think of like all the different bodies of health and how this all interplays. And, you know, uh, originally I’d say it probably goes back to, I, I grew up doing martial arts for a long time and, and competed for a long time. And that was a big part of my life. And I was really fortunate enough to have, uh, my, my sensei, my karate instructor was really into all of this sort of stuff.

Jason (03:05):
I think natural health. Um, and so I remember even doing, like back when we were kids, when I was probably around maybe 14, doing like a, a, a retreat at his farm where a bunch of the students actually went over there and we did a touch for health retreat. So we actually had someone come over and that was like kind of the original aspects of almost like applied kinesiology where you check the e u muscle test, you check the energetics, you check the meridian lines, you do acupressure points. Cuz we were basically doing that on each other to tune up before competition. So we’d check each other, we’d tune each other up, we’d run meridians, we’d do all of this different stuff. So I think I got exposed to it really early on. And then to me it felt magical. You know, this idea that you could like, you know, massage little points or run meridians and you’d feel a difference in your body and you could tune things up.

Jason (03:55):
So I think I was fortunate to have someone that had the foresight to understand this sort of, um, subtle energetic aspects of how we, how we heal, how it affects and influences, how we perceive the world, how we interact with the world, all of these different things. And then from a my own perspective, I was a total bubble boy growing up. I mean, I, I was born into this world with tons of allergies. I had anaphylaxis reactions I would spend sometimes in the hospital and an oxygen tent from severe asthma attacks. And that wasn’t really getting better until I was in my early twenties and before becoming a naturopathic doctor and an osteopath, I actually did massage therapy. So I actually, it was the first thing I did. I had a really, I had a really bad injury from running and I got a friend of mine who had just finished the course, do massage therapy with me.

Jason (04:47):
And it was tremendous. It made such a difference. I was like, I gotta know that. So I went into massage therapy initially and through there it totally blew my mind open because that, that was sort of my first step into something that was a little bit more, um, outside of like just conventional medicine. So then from there, I actually saw a naturopathic doctor for the first time and it absolutely healed my allergies. So it’s like I was chronically on antihistamines and bronchodilators and, and that was my world for a long time. Chronic sinus issues, all of this sort of stuff. And after working with that specific doctor for probably about six months, my allergies just started to disappear. I no longer needed inhalers, I was off antihistamines and my life just blew up, like as far as expansion. And so it was at that point that I really knew that’s what I wanted do.

Jason (05:38):
So then as soon as I came back, I went, finished up what I needed to do with kinesiology for university, and then I went in right into naturopathic medicine. And then from there, it’s just been a constant exploration. I, I find like as soon as you get interested in health, you just, for me, I just wanted to know like, what’s the next piece? What’s the piece? Because you kind of find when you get into something as much as you find what works, you also find where your limitations are and what doesn’t work the way you think it’s supposed to work, or why doesn’t it work on everybody? And then that was really what sort of brought me into understanding all of these different bodies of health. We are really not this physical being, we are, that’s a piece of it, but we’re this vital body and this emotional body and this mental body and spiritual body and all of these sort of subtle, energetic aspects of metaphysics that ultimately I think create more or less the blueprint for how we function in the world physically.

Jason (06:30):
And so that’s what really started to transition my perspective on health and wellness. And it really is then an integrative whole body approach. I really wanna look at all of the different pieces because they all play into it. And for some people one piece is more of a big deal than somebody else. And, um, I wanna, I wanna look at that. And I think ultimately when we work at health from all of those levels, we just show up in the world in a completely different way outside of what it does for our health. Your whole life starts to change because you’re, you’re really working on things at that fundamental root that everything kind of stems from.

Guy (07:08):
Yeah, it’s huge. Well said. I I, it’s interesting, isn’t it, because the other aspects that you speak about, the vital, emotional, fundamental and spiritual generally, they’re beyond our awareness and we, we, we are so unconscious that we just fo literally focus on a physical aspect of it. And if we can’t see it or feel it or, or hear it in that moment, then it, it’s just not possible, you know? Yeah. And, and we’re kind of being conditioned that way. Where do you think we are on a hall in terms of this integrative medicine approach? Because I go out there in the world, I’m in front of people, I’m probably in front of at least close to 300 people every month now in workshops and retreats and things like that. And people are struggling. That’s what I see. And they’re looking for answers, you know?

Jason (08:01):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I think ultimately it’s in the struggle that people actually open up to all of the other aspects, you know? Um, I wish it wasn’t like that, but, and I think that we are actually going to be shifting and evolving to a point that we don’t actually are going to require suffering as being the main catalyst to expansion and growth. I really do think we are gonna move beyond that, but I feel like we are in this sort of, sort of in between phase where I still think that is the biggest, um, opener for us to expand into then honestly and authentically looking at all of the other pieces that might play into it. Because you can’t really explore that unless you really are all in and willing to kind of explore all this stuff authentically. You just, you just can’t. And, and we, so, you know, there’s this combination where I think a lot of times we don’t know because we run so much on autopilot all the time mm-hmm.

Jason (08:59):
<affirmative> and we, we kind of rub ’em from this unconscious mind a lot of the time. And then other times where I, I just don’t know if we have the desire to enough because things haven’t shaken up enough to make us. And, and then there’s the other part where I think it’s scary sometimes because sometimes to have to really dive into what’s going on usually means we have to make some tangible real changes in the way that we are living our life. And that requires changes. Whether that’s big changes in how you eat, maybe that’s big changes in how you have your relationships. Maybe that’s big changes in how you manage your work, whatever you’re doing, um, how you’re spending your time, what you’re prioritizing. So I think when that happens, we gotta be at a place where if we’re going to do that, then we’re ready to step forward from whatever, whatever our personal instructions then tell us to do at that point in time as they reveal themselves to us spontaneously.

Guy (09:59):
Yeah, no, fair enough. And what, what would your then, I’m just thinking of the listeners today, right? And when we want to, you know, when that pressure is so great and you think, I am suffering here, I really need to do something about it. And that’s normally the, the rocket fuel that gets us moving. What would your overarching principles be? I know you speak about the bodies of health, the five bodies of health and things, but I’m intrigued because when we look at it, it all feels overwhelming. Just even changing food can feel overwhelming, let alone looking at the, um, the environment we are sleeping in and the, the energetic components around. You know, it’s like everyone’s a rabbit hole, but it’s like, how do we simplify it and start looking at it? Because the one thing I get frustrated as a facilitator in some respects is knowing that this truly is a holistic approach to living, but yet you can’t throw it all at them at once because it’s just too much.

Jason (10:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally agree. And even when I’m working with patients, um, I find everybody’s in a slightly different place on where they’re most motivated to address something in their life. So part of it is, as soon as you do something, whatever it might be, some people come in and they’re much more apt to maybe do a, do a check. So maybe we’ll even start from a physical perspective and do, do sort of an overview of, it might even be like specific lab tests or something along those lines, or even certain questionnaires to kind of really sort of fine tune where are we and what are some of the big logs in the fire that we can address. And then that sometimes presents it to people in a bit more of a doable way. It’s like, oh, okay, I can see this is outta balance and I can see this is outta balance.

Jason (11:47):
It was really the reason why I wrote, one of my, my first book I wrote was called Top 10 Lab Tests. And the idea was to really look at what I just found over and over and over again. Most of these were sort of nutrient based lab tests and, and, and sort of systems that were just really outta balance for people. So as much as sometimes the mental and emotional are often higher up the chain affecting the physical, sometimes people are so depleted that you do have to do certain things to try and get them working a little bit better so that they even have the energy and the, the, the inspiration to even be able to work on the other stuff. So I, I think of it like, if I’m working with someone and they’re totally anemic, right? And they’re irons bottomed right out, it’s like, well, they’re not gonna be able to do much of anything because they just don’t have any of the ooph there to be able to do that stuff.

Jason (12:36):
It’s all gonna feel overwhelming. So if I can sometimes correct imbalances, which often happen, even from being in a system of feeling overwhelmed and stressed or anxious or depressed for a long time, cuz that has a much different, um, taxing on your body’s load and what it requires. If we can start to stabilize some of that, all of a sudden you get people feeling in their body a little bit better, they feel a little stronger, they’ve got a little more energy, maybe they start to sleep a little bit better, some of these fundamentals, right? As soon as those things start to get a little bit better, I, I often find then people are like, okay, what’s next? You know, I’m, I, now I’m, I can see, I can feel it, I’m feeling a little bit better now. What can I do next? And sometimes that’s where then we can move into the other sort of bodies of health and explore those a little bit more.

Jason (13:24):
But I still find a lot of people often at this point still need to address some of the stuff in the physical body first because it’s often so at a balance and so depleted. Uh, especially now because I feel like everybody’s just on this hamster wheel and burning the, you know, they’re just tired and they’re not sleeping well and they’re not eating well. And it’s like, so there’s a lot. But if you can start on a couple of key places, and I find when I can run some of the different tests or things that bring it to this objective picture where they can see where they’re outta balance, it gives them sort of a very clear direction. It’s like, okay, we’re gonna do this when this gets to here, these are some of the changes that we should start to notice. So it gets them on a step-by-step process.

Jason (14:08):
So a lot of times I’ll find that will be where I will often start with people is if they’re coming in and they’re really focused on the physical, and if even if I know there’s this and this and this over there, I still often will start here where they are and, and match that. Cuz you gotta still be in resonance with where they are. If you’re outta residence, you’re just, nothing’s gonna really connect. So you gotta kind of meet them where they are. And then from there you start to work and it’s often guide, it’s a process. I mean, you can’t do all of it at one time and it’s often, you know, layers of it as you’re working with people.

Guy (14:40):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I love it. I couldn’t agree more. Like I think about, um, my own journey and even now, like, you know, what’s the spark? What’s the catalyst to go, I am inspired enough to want to, to want more of that and not of the old self. And then as that most snowball effect, isn’t it, and all of a sudden you become unstoppable eventually, you know?

Jason (15:00):
Yeah, absolutely.

Guy (15:02):
Yeah. In, in my early twenties, I, I never speak about this much, but I always suffered fatigue spells and I was backpacking and traveling and I remember, I think I counted about five doctors had blood tests with over, um, different times and they were never really giving me anything back, you know, and, and I later learned, um, it was actually due to my sensitivities to foods mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and uh, blood sugars and things like that. And, and I couldn’t believe it. And it just took, um, a uh, a lecturer to tell me, oh, have you tried this? I was like, no. And I did. And the moment I did, I felt better. I couldn’t believe it. Like it was that simple and it spent and I was so frustrated, but I didn’t have the education, the knowledge or, or where to and, and that was the spark. I think that was probably one of the earliest sparks for me to go, there’s more to this I’ve gotta start exploring, you know?

Jason (16:00):
Yeah. And that, that story I hear so often too, and these are sort of the different paradigms of medicine, you know, that are out there. And conventional medicine I think is, is brilliant for like first aid scenarios, but it’s really not a good system for chronic illness. It just, it just isn’t because it doesn’t really address underlying, um, root factors. It’s, it’s really trying to work with the symptoms that are coming up and balance things or, or make you feel less, but it doesn’t really address because it doesn’t really look at nutrients or diet or lifestyle for the most part. It’s usually more of a, of a pharmaceutical approach to things. But, um, things like, I mean, that, that was, that was my end when I saw the naturopathic doctor. I dramatically changed my diet, but I was totally ready for it because I was so tired of feeling the way I had. And when I started to feel like, okay, this, there could be actually hope and it really made sense, it resonated with me, you know, I got to sit down with this guy for like an hour and a half and go through everything and it just felt like he understood what was happening. And I got put on a really specific program,

Jason (17:07):
Food changes. Like if everybody, if they wanted to just try and do one thing, it was like, yeah, take out, like do some of the fundamental changes in diet. Almost everybody I think would benefit from running through some variation of an elimination diet just to take some of the big foods that tend to create problems with people over time. And, and part of that’s even just set up with how those foods are processed and how they’ve changed over the years. But, you know, you take things like try taking grains out for a period of time and have more root vegetables, you know, have more like, um, squash and yam and sweet potato and cassava and plantain and stuff like that without grains, particularly gluten. Take dairy out for a little while, um, and decrease your refined sugars. Don’t eat packaged foods for a bit. I, I honestly, if people can do that for a month, most people will feel a dramatic change in how they’re feeling.

Jason (18:00):
And it’s not even really a hard thing to do other than it’s just mostly people get into routines where we don’t do that. But if you can start to get that in, I find always that’s a, that’s such a big one. And sometimes you don’t even need to treat all these other symptoms because that covers and all of a sudden it’s like, oh my, my digestion’s feeling a lot better. My energy feels a lot better. Ah, I, I don’t have those aches and pains in my joints anymore. All of that can come just from making changes in diet.

Guy (18:26):
It’s massive, isn’t it? I remember having, um, Chris Kresser on, oh God a while back now, but he, he spoke about literally just buy the ingredients. Like if you’re buying a complete, leave it alone and buy the ingredients and, and you know, you’ll, you’ll go a long way just from doing that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is important. I’m fascinated cuz I looked at your podcast this morning, it’s got 179 episodes on it and I’m like, wow. You know, that’s commitment, that’s passion. I, I, I’ve, you know, I, I can so relate to, to what you’re doing. And then I started looking at the topics and going in and, and you’ve done an incredible job of um, you know, having the series of different themes as you go. And I, and I literally looked at the latest one and it was about a near-death experience. Yeah. And I thought, wow, here we have a naturopath talking about, um, near-death experiences that are, and you know, it goes right down the rabbit hole, which is, which I think is fantastic. And these conversations need to be had. Yeah. Um, where is your curiosity for that kind of work, leaning into the spiritual aspects come from, if it has? Or was it purely curiosity? Cuz I can see you, you really enjoy it,

Jason (19:43):
<laugh> Yeah. Well I, I’ve just find like I’m, I really am genuinely curious on just more about how the greater reality works. What I, I mean, when you look at any of even the research on say spontaneous healing, you know, there was a book called Radical Remission. And um, basically she was looking at terminally ill patients. Mostly these were like stage four cancer inoperable, and they had spontaneous remissions. And so she did this study, I can’t remember, it was like three or 5,000 people that she had gone through to see like, what was the recipe? What was going on is this reproducible? And out of the 10, the list of 10 common things, only three of them were physical, like changing diets and, and um, taking some herbs and supplements, all the other ones tied into these more abstract bodies of health. Like, um, you know, getting rid of a lot of, um, heavier emotions that weren’t serving them.

Jason (20:41):
Um, finding more joy in their life, trusting their intuition more, um, these types of things, right? Taking more stepping and having more ownership and more responsibility for their health. So they weren’t in the physical world, they were in these other pieces. And what I’ve just seen, um, both myself and I’ve seen clinically is that when people have a true spontaneous healing, it usually comes from this top down model. It’s coming from something more abstract that we can’t necessarily access so easily with our five senses, but it’s having a very direct effect on our physical body and often very quickly when it happens. And so I’ve seen this with myself where I’ve, I’ve ex explored this when I’ve, and I’ve seen it where I’ve had like all of a sudden outta the blue, I’ve had like a, like quite literally like a debilitating hip pain that came up and it was right after a conversation with someone where I could, and, and I intuitively knew it was intermingled.

Jason (21:42):
And, and then in sitting sometimes with it until the aha moment came to me on what was going on, I literally would sit there, get into a, um, a, a specific sort of meditative state and then I would go into that part of the body and ask it questions as what was going on and allow it to reveal itself to me. And I’m still amazed at sometimes when something like that can be literally debilitating and it can dissolve so fast when you catch what’s going on with it. And so having those experiences myself, seeing that take place in patients, I know that that is a realm of, of possibilities and healing that exists that a lot of time is untapped because we either don’t know how to go there, we’re scared to go there, we don’t know what questions to ask. We’re just so an autopilot on dealing with all the other things that we don’t even have the bandwidth to explore.

Jason (22:36):
So that’s become a, a, a really big curiosity for me to just constantly explore it more and more and more. And, and then how do we open up the door for it to land somewhere for other people? That’s kind of my, I think part of my role is to try to bring conversations and people together and, and have conversations in a certain way that the content will land for someone and spark their own knowing of that within themselves. And so that’s kind of caused us to make a lot of these different series. So this series right now is on life, death and beyond exploring our greater reality. And so we’re talking to mystics and scholars and a number of near death experiencers. And I wanna know like what be, and part of this was because there’s also a lot of fear around death. And personally I feel like, I mean obviously because it’s one of those mysteries we don’t know until we’ve actually crossed over.

Jason (23:35):
But I feel like it’s, from my perspective, I think it’s very misunderstood. Um, and I think we’ve got a lot of beliefs around it that are very limited and scary and judgmental and I want to have conversations with other people that have crossed over and see where the overlap is and, and, and hear different perspectives so people can maybe have that land somewhere differently for them so that they’re not so fearful of death. And then even when they have loved ones that are transitioning, they can show up in a way that’s really supportive for both themselves and for that person in the, in the transition that they’re going to go through. And so that was kind of what sparked, sparked this aspect of things. And, um, I mean, they’re fascinating guy so far. The interviews we’ve had, I, I’ve been some of my favorite interviews so far, I just find like they’re really, really good because they’d only talk to us about how to, how to even perceive death and beyond in our greater reality and everything through that they, they teach us how to show up and live our life more fully now.

Jason (24:39):
And so that, that’s the golden it is. It’s like, it’s not just for after, but it’s like when you learn some of this other stuff or, and it’s not to say that I think any single person has the absolute truth, but I like hearing the conversations and I want people to see what resonates with you and can you allow it to come in. And, and I just put a video out a little while ago. I said, are these conversations challenging your beliefs? Because as soon we’ve only had two episodes in, I think our third one goes out tomorrow for this series. And we’ve already had a bunch of questions on people. You can see, like some of the conversations shake people up because we’ve got so much concepts of what we think we know based on what we’ve been told over decades of society and culture and religion and all of these different things.

Jason (25:26):
And, and not to say it’s good or bad, but it shapes our perception of reality and what we think we know. And what I have constantly been adapting over this last few years has been this idea of can I really go into everything without fully accepting or fully rejecting anything and be in this place of allowing stuff to come through this sort of dynamic neutrality and just, and then from that place, I think the spontaneity of our own personal instructions continually surfaces and helps us explore that as soon as we think we’ve come to a conclusion on something, I think we’ve now limited ourselves to only those possibilities and we’ve kind of shrunken that field of possibilities into something small. So these conversations, what I’m my hope for people and my, my intention and desire is to like open up a lot more possibilities and play with it, have fun with it, be curious with it and see what lands for, for you. You know?

Guy (26:23):
Yeah. I’m, I’m biting my tongue here. It’s, it’s almost, I got so much I could say on everything you just shared then. And I don’t wanna hijack the podcast today, but I could, oh my God, I couldn’t agree more. Couldn’t agree more. And guy, you covered a lot of ground then from going to the body to exploring the mystical and you know, uh, j just a, just a little touch on that, just for people, like we’ve run 14 retreats now. We just literally finished our week long last week and through those 14 times, cuz we are in a collective energy, we go to the body and we go to source that that’s what we do. And we, we allow people to go through that in a, in a real house space. But I, the amount of physical elements that have come out that have healed through past trauma, just from being in that space Yeah. Has blown my mind. That is like one of the, the, the bonuses, if you like, of doing this work is that you truly heal yourself on those levels as well while holding space. Absolutely. So anyone listening to this like explore it, explore it, it’s, it’s mind blowing, mind blowing. It’s

Jason (27:27):
Really, uh, it’s really a beautiful concept because when you’re, when you’re creating a space like that and holding a space, it, it’s all then putting you in resonance. So it’s like you’re creating a field and then people are, you are sort of being uplifted into that field. And when, when you hold a more powerful field of consciousness, there’s more possibilities than often what that person is able to do on their own. And so you’ve, it, it’s like the same idea with say something like alcoholic anonymous, uh, anonymous on your own, that field that you’re stuck in, you might not be able to get out of very easily, but in the group field you kind of rise above it and now there’s more possibilities for change to take place and for healing to take place. And when you’re in that, that, that is your limitless field of possibilities. And this is why it’s so important to, when I’m thinking about sort of the metaphysics and how healing works, it’s these, these layers of consciousness, um, are either more constrictive with little ability to change your life or they’re much larger with a lot more possibilities to make big changes in our life.

Guy (28:35):
Yeah, exactly. We actually have a say in this, an African proverb, but it’s, if you wanna go fast, go alone. But if you wanna go far, go together. And, and that’s exactly what happens. That momentum comes mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I’m curious, I wanna touch on David R. Hawkins. Yeah. I think this is a good time with a map of consciousness a little bit because I, I actually, when I sold my supplement company, um, uh, when I sold out of it five years ago to heavily lean into this work, it was a big deal for me. Huge deal. Like, you know, I’d been running it for nearly 10 years, my identity, yeah. I didn’t realize how much I was entwined in it. And I bought letting go on Audible by David A. Hawkins and I would jump on my push bike and I would cycle around here in northern by the rivers in Northern New South Wales and listen to that. And it, it was a really powerful tool and that’s when I first really started to drop into his work. And then hearing you speak of him so highly, and I haven’t known that you studied under him and I’d heard of the map of consciousness, but I hadn’t explored it. And you really sparked a huge curiosity yesterday when this dinner time. Yeah. I’d love you just to speak to him a little bit and that if, if you may.

Jason (29:46):
Yeah, I am. Yeah. I, he, it honestly makes me almost, um, emotional when I think about him cuz he, he really was such a beautiful, beautiful influence and still is, um, I still sometimes in, in my dreams, I, he comes up sometimes I think as a messenger and, and for me in my, the, the way that I will perceive certain directions or, or information. But, um, I, I really loved the way he explained things. And this was, this was back, I was reading things like, um, you know, Wayne Dyer and some of this stuff back probably over 20 years ago, probably 25 years ago. And often his name would come up as someone that they would quote. And so I’m eventually going, okay, that was like the third time his name came up. And I’m like, I gotta go read this book Power versus Forrest, cuz that seems to be something that a lot of these other people are sort of referencing.

Jason (30:39):
And when I read his book, it was, it was life changing. It really just gave me this con conceptual picture of what’s going on. And so he created something called the, the map of consciousness and it was sort of a calibrated scale of consciousness that he had worked out from sort of the lowest levels of consciousness, which would be right down like the lowest of the low levels would be like shame I think was around 20 out of a thousand, like really low level of conscious all the way up to pure levels of enlightenment, which would be at like a thousand and everything in between. And he would look at these levels of consciousness from multiple perspectives, you know, how we view our life, how we view God, how are, what are emotional levels, like all these different things at each level. So it, it gave people a very tangible sense of where we were at any given time, if we would take the time to actually reflect on it honestly.

Jason (31:39):
And so the idea was that this scale was a logarithmic scale, so that every time you move from say 20 to 30, that’s a big jump because it’s a logarithmic scale. And so it also gave perspective to where things like say anger can be a really beneficial emotion if angers say here and maybe apathy or fear or shame or all down here, if you can get up to anger, that actually is a much better, the problem is that a lot of times people around you don’t like that. So then you get suppressed back down again. But inside, if the person actually connects with how it feels, anger probably feels a lot better than shame, for example. And that’s actually a good movement in the right direction. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it also helps to navigate where you’re moving forward or if you’re kind of getting stuck back a little bit and you had to get to the level of 200, which was the level of courage until you actually started to be pro-life, like where you were really making now beneficial, um, steps within your own life.

Jason (32:43):
Anything below 200 was actually sort of self deteriorating. And so the level of courage was the foundational level. So the two most important levels that he would talk about would be the level of courage at 200 we have to be able to get to the level of courage, which then opens up to things like neutrality and willingness and enthusiasm and then reason and logic and all the way up to these higher states where we can eventually move to like love and peace and unconditional love and these types of things. Very hard to attain levels, but they’re accessible. So courage and then love was at 500, which a very small amount of people, um, sort of truly reached that, where they embody that and they’re kinda living in that space. And the beauty of it is that as you embody, so literally as you become these sorts of fields of consciousness, the influence that that has extrapolates into the world around you.

Jason (33:41):
So this is like the idea when Gandhi says, be the change you wish to see in the world, it really does make a difference because he would say someone that could function at the level of, you know, 500 could have an outreaching effect on millions of people potentially just by holding that state of consciousness that it actually uplifts many, many, many other people. So when we think, you know, we gotta do more out here, he would often say, leave the world alone. The world doesn’t need your help. The world’s fine on its own. Like just bring it back to here. You know, be work on that yourself. So it gives me a really beautiful perspective of, of where I’m at. And also at the same point, the idea that each of these fields is the lens that we see the world in. So if we are in say, a field of fear, which I think is a big one right now, we see a feel fearful world and then we interact in the world from that place, we reinforce those patterns and then we keep that going.

Jason (34:42):
And so if we want to experience something different, we have to be able to shift the field because then the field directly impacts the lens that we see everything through. So it gives me a really beautiful way of sort of working with these concepts and why it’s so important to clear a lot of this stuff so that we can kind of step into these different aspects of, or these different fields of consciousness and then see the world anew. Otherwise we don’t. It’s, it’s like we just keep trying to see something new. It’s like when, when you’re trying to work with, you know, I think about this like after say like a breakup. I remember being bitter years back after a really, um, hard breakup and I re I even know that wasn’t necessarily the best field for me to be in. So I would do trying to convince myself to see something else, but none of it felt real because I wasn’t genuinely there. You’re better off to then like really be honest with where you are. Allow that to almost burn itself out so that then you can naturally fall into something else and then you open up new possibilities for you when you’re into that next field.

Guy (35:52):
Yeah, no, it’s great, isn’t it? I think as humans we like to ha know where we are. There’s like, it needs to be like a goal post or reference points if you like and go, oh, I’m going this way. You know what I mean? And, and as you explain that, it’s nice to know that actually I am progressing here because there’s so many of these emotions and feelings and, um, perspectives are untangible and they’re only real to us. Right. But then if you have something you can, um, lean into to go, actually I am progressing here. This is, this is a good thing. Even though I might be angry right now, but I’ve come a long way or, or whatever. And the one thing I think is worth mentioning that I uh, that you mentioned in the podcast that did, wouldn’t, didn’t even occur to me until I heard you listen to it, is that not one is better than the other.

Jason (36:38):
Right.

Guy (36:40):
You know, and, um, I think it’s probably worth speaking to that a little bit because so often you could say, well I’m not at number 200 right now. I’m only at number 80 <laugh>.

Jason (36:51):
And that’s such a, that’s such a human thing to do. You know, we, we love to compare. Um, and even I remember even going to, cuz we, we would go to Arizona and Sedona and go to lectures with Dr. Hawkins and even the groups there, a lot of times people are wanting to try and figure out what each other’s level of consciousness is. And it’s, it’s, it’s all part of the same traps. I think it, it really doesn’t make any difference to me, you know, as a human being. It’s not like you just stay there all the time. You experience the gambit of things, but to me it’s just that you spend less and less time in things and you move through them faster because you’re, you’re not getting caught in so much of the stuff that’s not real anyways. That, you know, all of the misperceptions and misidentification that we place ourselves that usually get us stuck in stuff.

Jason (37:40):
So there’s just less, um, there’s less getting in the way. So life’s gonna throw stuff at us where, you know, I’ll feel sad or I’ll feel hurt or I’ll feel angry or whatever that might be. I, I think you, I don’t think you’re really being human having a human experience if you’re not, um, exploring the realm of those things. But I think you just have less clutter in the way. So it’s like, you know, the, with the, do you ever remember that story the Buddha talked about with the first and second arrow that goes through my head a lot of times? So the first arrow is the, the event that took place. So you lost your job, you and your relationship ended. Um, something happened that creates that first sort of suffering, that first arrow. But most of the suffering takes place with the second era, which is the one we shoot ourself, which, which is when we get caught up in the storylines and the, the negative future fantasy spiral and all of those things.

Jason (38:35):
So I think that this work helps us get rid of more and more of that second arrow. So it doesn’t mean you don’t have experienced life and I think you actually experienced life more fully because you’ve got less stuff getting in the way. You feel all of the emotions really well even when you’re, when fear it’s like you’ll feel fear when you need to feel fear, but it actually is used to inform you to then act in a specific way in the world. I think that’s the difference. Sometimes the other parts, when we get caught up with that second arrow, it doesn’t help us. All it’s doing is, is cycling us back into patterns that are not supportive. I think when we have less of that clutter, when we genuinely feel whatever, it’s, it’s actually information. Our body is informing us to do something. And so even something like anxiety for example, I think when we are clear and we’re not getting caught up in all of the false perceptions and identifications in the storylines, something like anxiety is really important.

Jason (39:34):
If that comes up now, if I feel anxious and I, cuz I feel like I’m working as much as I can to really try to be present and all these things, not that I always do that, but if I get anxious now it’s more of a reflection going, okay, what’s going on? What am I feeling anxious about? What, you know, and it, it’s actually a directive for me to figure something out and make a change as opposed to going into a, a negative future fantasy spiral or something along those lines. So I think in the emotions inform us and they also show us what’s purifying. They show us what is clearing out within ourselves and, and where we’re still, you know, where we still have those, I guess those densities that are still kind of dissolving and and clearing themselves.

Guy (40:18):
Yeah. It, oh, just a bit misdirection ago in your, I I’m gonna flip slightly because you speak about anxiety and, um, mental health issues are, are, are like huge, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> especially after the, the what we’ve just all come out of from the other end. Um, depression, ADHD to name a few. Where do you feel like, how much support do you think we can, like somebody listening to this today that might be their prominent feeling is depressed, they might get anxious very often or can’t even, even in with children like I see with parents concerned about children and things like that, it seems everywhere. Do you have any, um, tips or advice or what you’d like to speak to to at least alleviate anxiety if they are listening to this and they think That’s me,

Jason (41:09):
You know, so that’s a really big one. We could do a whole, it’s huge episode on then I’ll, I’ll kind of tell you where my brain goes with that and when I’m seeing people, so I, I often think most things are multifactorial and there’s several logs in the fire. So I’m usually trying to assess first, which are the biggest logs in the fire that are causing the biggest problems. So when I’m looking at mental health, one of that’s one of the areas i I focus most with in clinical practice. So I will look at what one of the pieces that I found really important is actually assessing people’s biochemistry for that. Some people have more of a predisposition that’s more of an epigenetic susceptibility for certain imbalances in their biochemistry that are all very treatable with key targeted nutrients if you know what the imbalance is.

Jason (41:59):
And so what these imbalances do is they cause either affecting specific nutrients that play key roles in the regulation of neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine and norepinephrine and gaba and these, these, these basically these neurotransmitters that really do affect how we think, feel, and ultimately act. And so I’ve found that that is always one of my first steps is I wanna see is there a susceptibility? So that’s a log that just doesn’t need to be there. It’s like their normals been riding up here all the time, so now you add in the different layers of environmental stress and personal stress and all the other things and they just, they get blown up too quickly where sometimes if those things are going there and we can correct that and get them into a, a more self-regulatory physiology, now they’ve got more bandwidth they can, they can handle life better.

Jason (42:53):
So I always wanna see that like something like say with a D H D with kids, about 70 to 75% of the kids with d h ADHD have a pretty significant copper zinc imbalance. And what that does, high copper will cause an over conversion of dopamine into norepinephrine. So that person’s essentially getting lower and lower levels of dopamine, which is seek pleasure to situations focus, concentrate that’s getting lower and lower and their fight or flight is kind of going up and up and up. And so that’s a big one that can get outta balance. It’s also a major imbalance that happens with postpartum depression. Almost guaranteed you will have high copper levels for postpartum depression. So I like to see that. There’s also aspects around blood sugar regulation, um, diet, um, gut biome, food allergies. So there’s a whole period around that. There’s another aspect that is around self-regulation.

Jason (43:50):
Like are you stuck in fight or flight and do you know how to get out fight or flight and more interest and digest. This would be incorporating practices like heart rate variability training or something along those lines like heart math does. They’re probably the best in the world for that aspect of things. And that’s a really a nu that’s like a, a practice you can do where you can assess and learn to feel the differences in your body when you move from one state to another. And then there’s the whole big realm of the mind body, spirit medicine. It’s like, is that now informing us? Where I think we are right now is as a society over a long period of time, I think we’ve become very, from what our body is telling us and we’ve also learned to distrust what our body’s telling us.

Jason (44:37):
And so to me the first part is to clear some of the extraneous stuff so that we can really start to get those, what our body is telling us, that we can actually start to trust it and use it to inform us. Right now I feel like we’re in this in-between phase where the messages that are coming up from the body, either we don’t have that connection to learn from it or we’ve disconnected from it even from early on with kids. Think about this with kids and you’ll know cuz you’ve got a l a little child. It’s so common that when a child cries, especially when they start to get a little bit older, most of the time the parents, or I’ll see this with like with the grandparents and stuff too, the child cries and right away they’re trying to like, okay, it’s okay, it’s okay like here or you know, have food, have a, something like what can we do to kind of make it better and go away Where I ultimately feel like, you know, I’ll hold my child and just hug them and allow it to move from beginning to the middle to the end so that they have an experience, that they can feel sadness and that sadness is okay, it’s normal and that it has a beginning, a middle and it runs its course and they, they, they’ve gone through it.

Jason (45:49):
So they actually learn that process. They learn to trust their body. They don’t think that it’s gonna last forever because they’ve never had a chance. They’ve always been having it kind of nip in the bud for something to get rid of it. So I think from early on we, we kind of get disconnected from what our body’s telling us. And so I feel like this is a really important part, reconnected back, but you kind of have to go through these other pieces to, to remove what doesn’t need to be there. The biochemistry is a piece where I feel like that’s something that often people are born with and that’s been triggered and now it’s running a program. So their sense of where they really should be at, they don’t even know anymore. I, I’ve had kids where they’ve been running up here all their life because they’ve had say a severe pyro disorder which causes a dramatic drawing of zinc and b6 so they can’t make serotonin, dopamine and gaba so they just don’t have the regulatory faculties there to deal with life. And when that’s improved it’s like they’re like, oh my gosh, like this is what it’s supposed to feel like. So sometimes those things can be an absolute game changer and again, it’s a good first place to start to work on, on some of the low-hanging fruit that I think then gets people back in their body a little bit more. They can start to then work with all the other pieces.

Guy (47:06):
Hmm. And when it is Exactly. And once you have a reference point, isn’t it a new reference plight of navigation, you can go, oh my god, I I’ve, I’ve gone through it once now I can actually navigate my way through that and and it’s us then isn’t it? It the powers back on us and we’re not giving it away like we’ve been. So

Jason (47:25):
That’s such a big point too guy because I, I think that’s a big thing. We’ve also, I mean this is something I’m seeing coming up is people want to have more sovereignty in many aspects of their health. So whether that, sorry, many aspects of their life. So whether that’s health, whether that’s with education and how they wanna educate their kids, whether that’s with finance, whatever it might be. I feel like people are wanting to have more say in stuff and I mean we did a whole series called No Thy Self and that idea was to be able to come back to a place of self authority as opposed to external authority, inner authority versus outer authority. And it’s not that it means to get rid of all outer authority cuz that probably wouldn’t function very well, but we need to be able to still run it through ourselves at some point and then that’s an important piece of it. And I think a lot of times we don’t do that, we just kind of hand it over and sort of hand it over. And I really feel like when it comes to health, the more that we start to know, I think ourselves more and, and the the power that we’ve actually got to heal and and whatnot. I I think then we just naturally will outsource stuff less because we, we know who we are better. There’s less need for it.

Guy (48:40):
Yeah, no, fantastic. I um, coming to the end of the podcast, just wrapping things up, there’s a couple of things I wanna mention before we do though. Jason one is going back to David R. Hawkins. Uh, I just wanna let people know it’s episode 100 I was listening to last night on your podcast, the Inspire Health podcast. So if people are fascinated, go and check it out cuz it’s great you did it. I know it was a webinar but I was listening to the audio and um, yeah

Jason (49:05):
I actually had to take the video down because I didn’t realize, but I had a picture of myself shaking hands with Dr. Hawkins, but all of that stuff’s copyright so you can’t actually put any pictures of him or his books or anything. Which, which was surprising to me cuz I was just trying to like actually bring people’s awareness to it. So the video, I think you can’t see the video but you could still listen to the whole episode on as an audio.

Guy (49:28):
Okay, got it. Yeah. But it’s so important what you do, like bringing awareness that it’s brought me more awareness to that and I’m like, you know, I really wanna dive deeper and, and talk about his work more and, and maybe bring it into the work we’re doing. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s crucial. Uh, the second thing I I need to mention before we wrap this up is that we only met in on person today. Yeah. But we, we got the same shirts on and we, and

Jason (49:51):
We both got the same

Guy (49:53):
Biogeometry pendant and L 90, which is hilarious and I thought wow, we’re definitely on the right place here together.

Jason (49:59):
No, I think we were, we were in residence on the this happening. I thought that was funny. I thought I was double seeing something at first cuz I saw it flash and then it went below the camera and I’m like, well maybe I was just seeing myself. I thought that would be too weird anyways. But

Guy (50:12):
Yeah, it’s a big topic and we don’t have to dive into it today, but have you covered any episodes on bio geometry yourself yet?

Jason (50:19):
Um, not yet. I, as we were talking before, I really dove into his books, Dr. Ibrahim Kareem’s books on bio geometry and then I did the foundation and then I did the advanced training and I’ve been incorporating it in practice and with my family and, and we have the whole whole space out. So out, set up now with all the bio geometry and it really does make a difference. But I will be wanting to do a series soon. I maybe even the series after the one we’re currently doing on Life Death and beyond exploring our greater reality. We may do it, the next series might be on energy medicine and metaphysics and really breaking down how that works. And I would wanna have Dr. Kareem on here as a guest because he would be a piece of this bigger puzzle. You know, even tying into experts on water and different aspects of energy medicine. Cuz it, I think this is all the, the healthcare of the future is, this is all tied into it.

Guy (51:15):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So last question for you before we wrap things up. Um, with everything we’ve covered today, what would you like to leave the listeners to ponder on? Hmm.

Jason (51:30):
Probably from what we talked about today? I think one of the best exercises that you could do that to me is, is absolutely transitional. And probably one of the most beneficial exercises you could do would be, and it ties into the concept of no thy self. So it’s like, if we really want to make changes in some aspect of our life, we really need to understand why we do the things that we do. So my wife and I have done the exercise where we’ll literally take a journal with us all day long and, you know, you try and do this up for like a week and whenever something comes up, whenever you do anything, you wanna question yourself as to why you were doing that thing. So you write down, why did I do that, why did I do that? And the first few answers are just the route sort of conditioned, con conditioned sort of answers.

Jason (52:23):
They don’t really mean much, you just keep asking and then you, until you eventually get to the root of why you’re doing the things you’re doing. So it could be as simple as, you know, I just texted someone and it’s like, okay, well why did I text that person? Well, I wanted to see how they were doing. Did I really wanna see how they were doing? Okay? Not really. Okay, so then why did I text them? And you might eventually get down to, you know, maybe, you know, I’ve felt this inner restlessness feeling in my gut and I was just trying to create, avoiding it for some reason. <laugh>, you know, it eventually brings you down to these, these truths that we often don’t realize that are basically playing the biggest role into why we are doing what we’re doing, um, or avoiding some of these things or at the root of what, what’s going on.

Jason (53:08):
So I find that type of an exercise is a really, really powerful exercise for you to regain that inner authority. It’s like, know why you’re doing things and be as honest as you can with yourself. And then, like Dr. Hawkins would talk about in the Letting Go book, and we just talked to, um, uh, I guess Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, who did this amazing Ted Talk on my stroke of insight. She’s actually gonna be coming out on tomorrow, I think her interview, talking about her newest book. But, um, she was basically showing like when we get these hard emotions that come up, these really intense ones, she said, the, the physiology of the emotion will only last about 90 seconds. It’s literally 92nd rule. And if we can stay with the sensation without adding in the thinking and the storyline, the metabolism of that emotion will break up and dissolve.

Jason (54:03):
And if you can just stay without adding to it, you will dissolve so much built up emotion that is stored in our bodies. So that often I, why I say that is because that usually comes up when we get to the root of why we’re doing stuff. You know, sometimes you’re, you’re doing something, you get to the root, it’s like, ugh, shit. You know, like it’s this just not feeling good about myself, you know, again, or it’s just this, this anxiousness that I’m gonna screw something up or whatever it might be that is at the heart of sort of what we eventually get to and then stay with that sensation without getting into anything else on it and let it burn itself out as that neurochemistry burns out, that that load that sits in the subconscious, which is the body dissolves and there’s less there, that’s just putting you in autopilot and reacting from it

Guy (54:54):
Beautiful. You know, that exploration is vital, isn’t it? And when you think about how much that story and the emotions and what we impose upon, just the feeling within the body, um, dictator our life unconsciously day in, day out. Yeah. You know, oh,

Jason (55:11):
It’s, it’s ongoing for all of us. Um, the other thing too is people, if you want, I talked about heart math, you can do a free download if you go to drjasonloken.com and then just click Integrated Medicine under the, um, offerings. You’ll see something that says accessing your heart’s wisdom. I can even send the link if you want Guy to that, but you can download that for free. It’s a free meditation I did that basically gets you into that HeartMath state where you’re in that brain heart coherence. And then it takes you to the next step where you actually ask your heart questions. And you often find the answers are very different than when we ask our brain the questions and we’re in that state. So I think that’s a good starting place too, for people to know what it’s like to feel when you are in that heart brain coherence and um, and, and then being able to, um, live your life more from that place.

Guy (56:05):
Beautiful. Yeah. And can you say your podcast out loud? If people wanna check, come over and check your podcast out.

Jason (56:10):
Yeah, go check out Inspire Health podcast. And yeah, we got, I think we just put out our hundred and 80th episode and it’s been an absolute passion project. So my wife TAA joins me on a lot of the interviews now, especially since we’ve been expanding into, um, the, the mind body spirituality, all of these pieces, which she’s very interested in. So we have some really fun discussions and her and I kind of go back and forth a bit. So it sort of adds different types of questions into the mix at times, too.

Guy (56:39):
Amazing. Well, I’ll make sure the links are in the show notes below, and, uh, anyone listening can just drop down and jump on over and check it out. And Jason, I just wanna thank you for coming on the show. It’s been a pleasure getting to know you over the last hour and, uh, and I have no doubt this won’t be the last time we meet, so I really appreciate your wisdom.

Jason (56:58):
My pleasure, Guy. That was really fun. Thanks so much for having me on.

Guy (57:01):
You’re welcome.